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re: Latest Updates: Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:32 pm to Lee B
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:32 pm to Lee B
quote:
the collective West decides "there's no fricking way we're letting Putin win" he will be stopped. Just like Hitler was stopped, and Hitler was much stronger and had an infinitely superior military to Putin.
Hitler would have won if the U.S. hadn’t joined. The same applies here. I’m not advocating for or against NAT0 troops in Ukraine, but the reality is Russia won’t be defeated by Ukraine soldiers alone.
2
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:33 pm to deltaland
quote:
quote:
That's not who wins wars of attrition. It's not about body counts. It's about industrial production, logistics, and political will.
Actually it’s whichever nation whose people get fed up with it first.
It’s why the US failed in Vietnam, and later in the war on terror. The goal is to break the will of the opponent where that nations people start calling for it to end. Grow weary of it so to speak
Yep, and this is Putin's gambit... that Democracy has no will and since no one in Russia can determine what he does he can win.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:35 pm to Lee B
Glenn Greenwald with a true tweet towards most of you, and no I’m not forgetting what yall defended on here for years on end:
Loading Twitter/X Embed...
If tweet fails to load, click here.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:46 pm to ticklechain
Because they haven't proven they can take any city that's competently defended without taking very high losses of men and equipment. Plus, it's a much bigger area than either Bakhmut or Avdiivka. Not sure why anyone would believe they would take it any faster than they did either one of those. Which, again, took multiple months and tons of losses in both cases. Yet they're gonna roll Kharkiv in a week? That's just not reality.
They may eventually take Kharkiv, but if they do, they're gonna pay dearly for it. Ukraine certainly isn't going to let it go without throwing everything they have at the attacking force.
They may eventually take Kharkiv, but if they do, they're gonna pay dearly for it. Ukraine certainly isn't going to let it go without throwing everything they have at the attacking force.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:47 pm to deltaland
quote:
Ukraine has the high tech we give them. But they don’t have the soldiers and their numbers are getting thinner. The Russian people are under no threat because we won’t let ukraine use our weapons to launch an offensive into Russia so you won’t see much anti war sentiment there. At this point the Russians have the advantage by slowly draining Ukraine of their forces and will to fight. Lesser tech does not matter, they can expend their Soviet stuff at will when there’s no threat of attack on Russian soil.
Russia indeed has the upper hand for the short term. Much of the promised US aid won't arrive until summer. But the Russians are taking very heavy losses right now, and their offensive punching power will run out soon, as it has during every other offensive in this war.
As for the expenditure of Soviet equipment, I will simply say that that equipment is not limitless. I expect Russia to begin running out of critical components sometime in the next 6-9 months. Russia is just trying to make it through the election and is hoping that Trump wins and will cut off aid to Ukraine (and I am not at all sure that is what would happen).
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:48 pm to StormyMcMan
quote:
The Kremlin continues to add European officials to Russia's wanted list as part of Russia's efforts to assert the jurisdiction of Russian federal law over sovereign NATO member states.
well...
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:50 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
OMLandshark
I'll bite. What peace terms has Russia laid out that are responsible? They dismissed the April 22 peace talks just because it had Ukrainian security guarantees in it.
As much as the "pro peace club" loves to say the West needs to stop fueling a war, Russia hasn't wanted to actually offer a peace deal that isn't short of complete surrender
If your claim is that you just want the least amount of deaths and are therefore mad at Ukraine for not "coming to the table" I would counter by saying you should also be just as mad at Russia for continuing to fuel the war and not just withdrawing to Russia.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:57 pm to StormyMcMan
quote:
What peace terms has Russia laid out that are responsible?
Don’t act like I don’t know that Boris Johnson interrupted any potential peace talks.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:58 pm to IAmNERD
quote:
Because they haven't proven they can take any city that's competently defended without taking very high losses of men and equipment.
There was a video today from a guy in Poland who showed a massive column of military vehicles that he said was seemingly endless.
In video of some of the Bradleys in combat showed that they were were still painted desert tan.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:59 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Don’t act like I don’t know that Boris Johnson interrupted any potential peace talks.
Are you referring to the ones Putin publicy dismissed because of Bucha and Ukrainian security guarantees?
ETA and please answer the post. What peace proposal has Russia provided that isn't a complete surrender for Ukraine?
ETA2: just a little light reading
April 7, 2022
quote:
Ukraine's new draft, according to Lavrov, said the status of Crimea, which Moscow annexed from Ukraine in 2014, should be raised at a meeting between the two countries' presidents.
It also said Ukraine could hold military drills with foreign countries without receiving Russia's permission, something Moscow disagrees with.
"Such inability to agree once again highlights Kyiv's true intentions, its position of drawing out and even undermining the talks by moving away from the understandings reached," Lavrov said, adding that the proposals were "unacceptable".
April 12, 2022
quote:
In the strongest signal to date that the war will grind on for longer, Putin said Kyiv had derailed peace talks by staging what he said were fake claims of Russian war crimes and by demanding security guarantees to cover the whole of Ukraine.
This post was edited on 5/15/24 at 9:05 pm
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:59 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Don’t act like I don’t know that Boris Johnson interrupted any potential peace talks.
The question was what were the terms. Ukrainians were overwhelmingly and still are against anything but gaining back pre 2014 borders. So Boris doesn't count.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 9:03 pm to CitizenK
Let’s face it, anything other than complete surrender of Russia is unacceptable. If it was Russia keeping Donbas and Crimea, you warmongers would refuse. But yall are drunk on war and can’t remotely contemplate that yall were wrong.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 9:06 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Let’s face it, anything other than complete surrender of Russia is unacceptable. If it was Russia keeping Donbas and Crimea, you warmongers would refuse. But yall are drunk on war and can’t remotely contemplate that yall were wrong.
Is this your way of saying Russia hasn't laid out any peace terms that aren't a complete Ukrainian surrender and then blaming Ukraine/the West for not just agreeing to it?
ETA in other words answer the question that was originally posed, what peace terms has Russia laid out that aren't a complete surrender for Ukraine?
This post was edited on 5/15/24 at 9:08 pm
Posted on 5/15/24 at 9:07 pm to deltaland
quote:
Hitler would have won if the U.S. hadn’t joined. The same applies here. I’m not advocating for or against NAT0 troops in Ukraine, but the reality is Russia won’t be defeated by Ukraine soldiers alone.
I hope we learned our lesson about letting things get to that point before we had to jump in...
I saw some retired general or other, etc., be asked "what will stop Putin?"
And he said "The President of the United States, The PM of the UK, The President of France, The PM of Poland, maybe Germany and then whoever else wants to be at the podium... they have to say 'We're going to back Ukraine in this and expel Russia, for however long it takes, and WHATEVER it takes!' And they should do that, because if not we're about to see a world where Wars just become a widespread thing whenever someone wants to conquer their neighbors."
"And then the next day Putin would throw a hissyfit and launch every drone, missile, glide bomb, and bottle rocket he has at Ukraine, and hopefully air defense would be waiting for that... and he'd probably do that every day for a week, or two, or three... and then he'd have to realize he can't do that forever and these countries have all backed themselves into a corner where they have to keep their word or they are laughing stocks... and that's something he would understand because he is a creature of pride. And then he'd have to decide how he wants the last decade or two of his life to be spent and how he can afford to hold control over his own country when this war is draining everything and crashing his economy. And then maybe he'd decide it wasn't worth it. Or he might just go out desperately fighting until he's exhausted,"
This post was edited on 5/15/24 at 9:08 pm
Posted on 5/15/24 at 9:12 pm to OMLandshark
Greenwald has always been a nutcase... and I'm one of the non-Conservatives here who's always thought he was annoying even when we were on the same side of an issue.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 9:15 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Russia is just trying to make it through the election and is hoping that Trump wins and will cut off aid to Ukraine (and I am not at all sure that is what would happen).
I wish I shared your uncertainty
Posted on 5/15/24 at 9:28 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
you warmongers would refuse. But yall are drunk on war and can’t remotely contemplate that yall were wrong.
None of us have a say. Those you call warmongers are only supportive of the nation invaded by the orcs.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 9:29 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Russia is just trying to make it through the election and is hoping that Trump wins and will cut off aid to Ukraine (and I am not at all sure that is what would happen).
I actually think Trump would broker a treaty and end it all. Hell he had Israel and its Arab enemies almost at a peace deal. The biggest shock to me of the Trump presidency was his successful diplomacy and foreign policy. Biden has absolutely fricked it all up and chaos has ensued between Russia-Ukraine and the mess in Israel.
I remember reading Putin wanted to invade Ukraine while Trump was president and Trump told them if he did that he would put a cruise missile through the Kremlin. Kremlin officials said they held back because Trump was “a cowboy” and they couldn’t determine if he would do it or not.
Also our military under Trumps command obliterating that Russian mercenary group that tried to attack a U.S. base, the MOAB on the Taliban outpost, killing Soleimani, etc really lends credence to such threats.
Putin doesn’t want Trump to win. I guarantee you that. Biden may send money and weapons but that’s it, he is too scared to go further.
Putin isn’t going to use nukes. The minute he fires an ICBM at a NATO nation Moscow would cease to exist. Trump would call this bluff and threaten direct NATO involvement if Putin doesn’t come to the table to work out a treaty
Posted on 5/15/24 at 9:57 pm to deltaland
...
Elmer Fudd could've gotten the Sunni Arab neighbors to make peace accords/security alliances with Israel... because their former refusal to accept a Jewish State has been replaced by their complete opposition to anything aligned with Iran, and Hamas and Hezbollah are aligned with Iran. And that development was named by Hamas as THE reason for October 7, that the region was "forgetting the Palestinian cause and accepting Israel." And that is why those countries are all kind of doing lip service to concern about Palestinian civilians (they don't and never truly have given a shite about the actual Palestinian people) while letting Hamas be destroyed and getting ready for that to finish so they can force the creation of an actual Palestinian state that has to abide by international law and they stop having headaches because of the noisy neighbors.
And I don't want to sound like some Biden fan (I'm merely a Biden tolerator) but you're saying the guy who's always been a complete dick to Putin's face and called him a murderer to the international press is less threatening than someone who's businesses owe the Oligarchs billions and who stood next to Putin and very meekly mumbled that he believed Putin over his own government... which he was in charge of at the time (Putin, who "doesn't understand English," cracked a smile and laughed in disbelief...)...
Whatever... downvote away. Badges of honor.
Elmer Fudd could've gotten the Sunni Arab neighbors to make peace accords/security alliances with Israel... because their former refusal to accept a Jewish State has been replaced by their complete opposition to anything aligned with Iran, and Hamas and Hezbollah are aligned with Iran. And that development was named by Hamas as THE reason for October 7, that the region was "forgetting the Palestinian cause and accepting Israel." And that is why those countries are all kind of doing lip service to concern about Palestinian civilians (they don't and never truly have given a shite about the actual Palestinian people) while letting Hamas be destroyed and getting ready for that to finish so they can force the creation of an actual Palestinian state that has to abide by international law and they stop having headaches because of the noisy neighbors.
And I don't want to sound like some Biden fan (I'm merely a Biden tolerator) but you're saying the guy who's always been a complete dick to Putin's face and called him a murderer to the international press is less threatening than someone who's businesses owe the Oligarchs billions and who stood next to Putin and very meekly mumbled that he believed Putin over his own government... which he was in charge of at the time (Putin, who "doesn't understand English," cracked a smile and laughed in disbelief...)...
Whatever... downvote away. Badges of honor.
This post was edited on 5/15/24 at 10:01 pm
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