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re: Chief's Harrison Butker delivers an unforgettable commencement address
Posted on 5/16/24 at 11:41 am to JohnnyKilroy
Posted on 5/16/24 at 11:41 am to JohnnyKilroy
gonna be funny when the nfl black balls like they did Kap
0
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:00 pm to lsupride87
quote:
Right. If I test my wife’s internal mucous temperature to determine now is not a good time for her to get pregnant so I can blow loads inside her, why can’t I just pull out when her mucous is showing ovulation?
You really have no clue how NFP works do you?
Pulling out to avoid pregnancy is not NFP; you are performing an aspect of NFP but that is not what NFP teaches.
Its kinda like me stabbing you in the chest and calling it heart surgery.
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:03 pm to Zephyrius
quote:Yeh, no shite. Read my post again slowly
Pulling out to avoid pregnancy is not NFP;
Testing your wife’s mucous is allowed in natural family planning. 97% chance of not getting pregnant using that
Pulling out is even less effective at 78%
So why the frick is NFP ok and pullout a sin? It’s so damn illogical
This post was edited on 5/16/24 at 12:07 pm
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:06 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
In what world is unnaturally extending life NOT a subversion of god’s will?
Did you switch up your argument to now take the side of the made up couple you posted about earlier?
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:09 pm to lsupride87
Along the lines of NFP, doesn’t the catholic church teach that sex shouldn’t be simply open to procreation, but for the express purpose of procreation?
That’s what I was taught coming up in catholic school.
How can NFP be practiced without sin if you are choosing to have sex only when you’re least likely to become pregnant?
That’s what I was taught coming up in catholic school.
How can NFP be practiced without sin if you are choosing to have sex only when you’re least likely to become pregnant?
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:13 pm to LNCHBOX
I’m asking where the “playing god” line is drawn.
If we are to accept that IVF is playing god, we must accept all medical and live saving treatments are playing god. It’s an unnatural and intentional act by man to intervene and subvert god’s will.
So far no one seems to be able to answer why playing god to unnaturally extend life beyond the will of god is ok.
If we are to accept that IVF is playing god, we must accept all medical and live saving treatments are playing god. It’s an unnatural and intentional act by man to intervene and subvert god’s will.
So far no one seems to be able to answer why playing god to unnaturally extend life beyond the will of god is ok.
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:13 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
but for the express purpose of procreation?
That’s what I was taught coming up in catholic school.
Well then you were only taught half of it.
Also, God allows humans to be sterile. So for your definition to be consistent, it would have to be the position of the Catholic church that sterile people cannot have sex. You think that's God's will?
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:17 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
So far no one seems to be able to answer why playing god to unnaturally extend life beyond the will of god is ok.
Probably because it's a stupid question. God gave us the ability to learn science and keep people alive longer.
It's pretty clear you're just trying for a gotcha on why IVF isn't part of that. You will not get an answer that satisfies you, and I'm not one that would argue IVF is different regardless.
I think you could make a case that sustaining an existing life is different than creating one via IVF, but again IVF isn't any hill I'd try to die on.
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:22 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
So for your definition to be consistent, it would have to be the position of the Catholic church that sterile people cannot have sex. You think that's God's will?
According to the catholic church, yes.
Sex is to be BOTH unitive AND procreative.
Words matter.
This post was edited on 5/16/24 at 12:23 pm
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:25 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
According to the catholic church, yes.
Can you cite your reasoning?
quote:
Sex is to be BOTH unitive AND procreative.
Words matter.
The only one stopping the sex from being procreative is God in this scenario. The sterile person may not even know they are sterile. How could they possibly be going against God's will in that scenario?
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:25 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
God gave us the ability to learn science and keep people alive longer
So?
Giving us the ability doesn’t mean anything regarding subversion of his will.
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:27 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
So?
Giving us the ability doesn’t mean anything regarding subversion of his will.
There is absolutely no point in engaging you any further.
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:28 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
There is absolutely no point in engaging you any further.
quote:
LNCHBOX
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:30 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
Is it amoral to provide medical treatment?
Well given the way we throw "medical treatment" around to describe all kinds of heinous things.
In many many instances , yes.
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:33 pm to LNCHBOX
quote:
Can you cite your reasoning?
The Catechism of the Catholic Church. See also Vatican II
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:36 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
I’m asking where the “playing god” line is drawn.
If we are to accept that IVF is playing god, we must accept all medical and live saving treatments are playing god. It’s an unnatural and intentional act by man to intervene and subvert god’s will.
So far no one seems to be able to answer why playing god to unnaturally extend life beyond the will of god is ok.
Wrong. On so many levels.
God's will is to have to people, married together, naturally man and woman, procreate naturally, be open to life during the unitive act.
God's will is not to have life created in a lab while destroying other life.
God's will IS NOT to give people cancer. The two situations are not related. So stopping cancer, where it is not "an act" of a being or of God, is fine.
Now, if you had to kill someone to stop cancer, let's say that we created a process - and this is very likely - to grow people to kill them for some reason to replace entire body parts that are infected with Cancer - but make sure that person never awakes. Or is not even a "person." Maybe we arrest the mental process - but use it to cure cancer. Also not God's will. Would not be ok. In your world - this would be fine.
Again, the ends don't justify the means.
quote:
So far no one seems to be able to answer why playing god to unnaturally extend life beyond the will of god is ok.
Because you are bucketing things that aren't related under the guide of "playing God," and you can't do that. Chemo or medicine has nothing to do with IVF.
Like the above - extending life is not ALWAYS ok. There are limits.
God's will is not to have people die, because if they come to him, they won't. Regardless of when their earthly life ends.
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:41 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
Wrong. On so many levels.
God's will is to have to people, married together, naturally man and woman, procreate naturally, be open to life during the unitive act.
Pretty funny he cites church teaching while apparently not reading them
quote:
The gift of a child
2373 Sacred Scripture and the Church's traditional practice see in large families a sign of God's blessing and the parents' generosity.162
2374 Couples who discover that they are sterile suffer greatly. "What will you give me," asks Abraham of God, "for I continue childless?"163 and Rachel cries to her husband Jacob, "Give me children, or I shall die!"164
2375 Research aimed at reducing human sterility is to be encouraged, on condition that it is placed "at the service of the human person, of his inalienable rights, and his true and integral good according to the design and will of God."165
2376 Techniques that entail the dissociation of husband and wife, by the intrusion of a person other than the couple (donation of sperm or ovum, surrogate uterus), are gravely immoral. These techniques (heterologous artificial insemination and fertilization) infringe the child's right to be born of a father and mother known to him and bound to each other by marriage. They betray the spouses' "right to become a father and a mother only through each other."166
2377 Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. the act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person. Such a relationship of domination is in itself contrary to the dignity and equality that must be common to parents and children."167 "Under the moral aspect procreation is deprived of its proper perfection when it is not willed as the fruit of the conjugal act, that is to say, of the specific act of the spouses' union .... Only respect for the link between the meanings of the conjugal act and respect for the unity of the human being make possible procreation in conformity with the dignity of the person."168
2378 A child is not something owed to one, but is a gift. the "supreme gift of marriage" is a human person. A child may not be considered a piece of property, an idea to which an alleged "right to a child" would lead. In this area, only the child possesses genuine rights: the right "to be the fruit of the specific act of the conjugal love of his parents," and "the right to be respected as a person from the moment of his conception."169
2379 The Gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord's Cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others.
But the Vatican is probably less knowledgeable than him on church teachings
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:47 pm to Freauxzen
quote:
So stopping cancer, where it is not "an act" of a being or of God, is fine
Cancer is a natural occurrence created by god.
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:48 pm to lsupride87
quote:
This is where religion and God in general loses me at times
God is the powerful one that can make sperm live longer. That’s almighty unlimited power. So, that must mean he creates the cancer to kill a poor innocent 5 year old child.
I'll blame myself for simplifying, but it's not that simple.
God can allow miracles to happen yes. And specifically these things can occur when we align to God's will, so let's the procreative act.
quote:
That’s almighty unlimited power.
Sure.
quote:
So, that must mean he creates the cancer to kill a poor innocent 5 year old child.
Holy jumping to conclusions Batman. First, no. But I'll bite...
God created a world with a lot of of things. A world impacted by our choices and we were placed here with freedom to make those choices. And we failed that test. Failing that test lead us to a fallen world with a lot of problems, cancer included, that we have to exist in and work our way out of. God will often make good things out of terrible situations. If we do what we are supposed to do here, follow God, things like cancer are irrelevant.
While our temporal, pleasure and pain focused existence make it hard to comprehend, and if we DON'T see an existence beyond this one, the yes, the answers become very very cloudy.
This post was edited on 5/16/24 at 12:51 pm
Posted on 5/16/24 at 12:50 pm to JohnnyKilroy
quote:
Cancer is a natural occurrence created by god.
See above.
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