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Non leftists that are Pro Palestinian
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:28 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:28 pm
Let me preface by saying I completely understand the Matt Walsh, Vivek, PBD, etc. non-intervention/isolationist stance of no American dollars or boots to the Middle East.
What i can’t understand is when otherwise astute political and social commentators parrot the laughable progressive rhetoric of genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid by Israel. I don’t understand how anyone with a brain can so easily see through the leftist social justice BS when it comes to everything else, but then co-opt the oppressor vs oppressed viewpoint of the Middle East conflict.
I’m referring to Candace Owens, glen greenwald, Dave smith, and jimmy dore amongst others. Even Joe Rogan has mentioned Israeli genocide a few times.
I don’t think it’s antisemitism (aside from Owens, whom definitively skirts the line there). Is it simply contrarianism?
What i can’t understand is when otherwise astute political and social commentators parrot the laughable progressive rhetoric of genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid by Israel. I don’t understand how anyone with a brain can so easily see through the leftist social justice BS when it comes to everything else, but then co-opt the oppressor vs oppressed viewpoint of the Middle East conflict.
I’m referring to Candace Owens, glen greenwald, Dave smith, and jimmy dore amongst others. Even Joe Rogan has mentioned Israeli genocide a few times.
I don’t think it’s antisemitism (aside from Owens, whom definitively skirts the line there). Is it simply contrarianism?
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Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:36 pm to 632627
quote:
Is it simply contrarianism?
I think quite a bit. I can argue this the other way, though. Why do people on the right, especially on this board, question EVERYTHING from MSM - except with respect to this subject? She's a total communist, but this is one thing Caitlin Johnstone beats on with respect to "rightists."
Loading Twitter/X Embed...
If tweet fails to load, click here. Israel/Gaza is interesting because there is a split in how people think they are being lied to/presented with info/gaslit/whatever. Most of the right seems to think MSM is just regurgitating Hamas propaganda. The alt media guys think MSM is in the bag for Israel. It's not just the alt left like Max Blumenthal, Aaron Mate, Chris Hedges, Michael Tracey, Greenwald, Dore, etc. It goes to former CIA guys like Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson, academics like Jeffrey Sachs and John Mearsheimer, the Duran (a popular international podcast), and the libertarian/anti-war type guys.
Matt Taibbi had been silent on most of this, but had a good pod about it. Much it is behind a paywall, but this gives you the flavor:
LINK
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 2:46 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:45 pm to 632627
I fall into this camp, with a couple of notable distinctions
1. I never use rhetoric about genocides, ethnic cleansing, or apartheid (though apartheid is absolutely a valid claim, I just don’t care).
2. I’m not pro Palestinian
I don’t really think the people you listed are necessarily “pro” Palestinian either, and it’s lazy to just throw that label around.
Contrarianism plays a part, sure. But here’s the deal as far as I’m concerned. Most of the stuff that gets parroted in the US about Israel is either a lie, or it’s sugar coated. I’m more concerned with this than pro Palestinian rhetoric because Israel has massive influence over our spending, foreign involvement, and even domestic policy. They are able to achieve this because vast swaths of the country buy every bit of their propaganda without questioning.
So I want to move away from giving them billions of dollars, and being fully expected to intervene in any serious conflict they are involved in. And I want domestic governors and Congress to stop creating ridiculous legislation surrounding this foreign country. None of this stops until the American public learn more about the truth of the darker side of their shenanigans.
If we achieved that sort of separation from them, I don’t care if they kill everyone in Gaza and the West Bank. They are welcome to do whatever they can handle on their own and more power to them. I am so sick of being tied to them though, and we get nothing out of this deal, absolutely nothing.
1. I never use rhetoric about genocides, ethnic cleansing, or apartheid (though apartheid is absolutely a valid claim, I just don’t care).
2. I’m not pro Palestinian
I don’t really think the people you listed are necessarily “pro” Palestinian either, and it’s lazy to just throw that label around.
Contrarianism plays a part, sure. But here’s the deal as far as I’m concerned. Most of the stuff that gets parroted in the US about Israel is either a lie, or it’s sugar coated. I’m more concerned with this than pro Palestinian rhetoric because Israel has massive influence over our spending, foreign involvement, and even domestic policy. They are able to achieve this because vast swaths of the country buy every bit of their propaganda without questioning.
So I want to move away from giving them billions of dollars, and being fully expected to intervene in any serious conflict they are involved in. And I want domestic governors and Congress to stop creating ridiculous legislation surrounding this foreign country. None of this stops until the American public learn more about the truth of the darker side of their shenanigans.
If we achieved that sort of separation from them, I don’t care if they kill everyone in Gaza and the West Bank. They are welcome to do whatever they can handle on their own and more power to them. I am so sick of being tied to them though, and we get nothing out of this deal, absolutely nothing.
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 2:47 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:47 pm to 632627
quote:
I’m referring to Candace Owens, glen greenwald, Dave smith, and jimmy dore amongst others. Even Joe Rogan has mentioned Israeli genocide a few times.
i listen to Rogan, Dore, and Smith pretty regularly. Smith being my favorite.
i usually am 100% on board with him for most of his takes. if there is a political opinion, i usually already agree with him or can be swayed.
i actually have the same criticisms of him that i do with Shapiro on the other side.
Shapiro says that we have given them numerous opportunities to have a state and they leave the table because Hamas doesn't want a state. You give them really shitty options and have had land grab after land grab since the 1940s. On top of all the civilians murdered.
Smith picks up what Shapiro leaves out and then also forget that Palestinians are stuck there because Egypt doesn't want them. Egypt doesn't want them because they supported Saddam in Kuwait (got kicked out.) Assassinated the Jordanian Prime Minister after Jordan went to war with the PLO, then went to war with Lebanon,
in short, they're a shitty people who cause trouble everywhere they go.
good video on why nobody wants Palestine in 4 minutes
i think both sides are leaving out a whole lot.
Shapiro is rabidly pro-Israel, but waves away A LOT of Israel's wrong doings. I don't know that Smith is "pro-palestine" but he carries way too much water for them and waves away the fact that they launch rockets indiscriminately all the time.and have made themselves unwelcome in the entire middle east.
Israel is a-hole here, but spare me the plight of a people too stupid to stop killing themselves for their billionaire leaders living in luxury around the ME.
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 2:50 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 2:54 pm to 632627
So you don't have a problem with what Israel is doing you just don't like the words they are using to describe what Israel is doing?
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:01 pm to Seldom Seen
quote:
So you don't have a problem with what Israel is doing you just don't like the words they are using to describe what Israel is doing?
I have no problem with what Israel is doing. They are fighting a war against barbarians that use human shields. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, that could’ve easily been completed by October 10th.
Why is Gaza the world’s largest open air prison? Israel pulled out almost 20 years ago; they’ve been under hamas’ rule since. If hamas didn’t constantly launch rockets or send suicide bombers into Israel, maybe Gaza’s borders would be as open as ours.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:08 pm to 632627
quote:
I’m referring to Candace Owens, glen greenwald, Dave smith, and jimmy dore amongst others. Even Joe Rogan has mentioned Israeli genocide a few times.
Do you think it has anything to do with them just not wanting to see helpless civilians killed by a government's military? Greenwald seems like a person who is against governmental power being used against civilians indiscriminately, whether it's law enforcement or the military.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:10 pm to 632627
quote:
I have no problem with what Israel is doing. They are fighting a war against barbarians that use human shields. If Israel wanted to commit genocide, that could’ve easily been completed by October 10th.
i'll repeat that Israel is an a-hole and i don't want one more penny to go there, but if Israel was "genociding them" that place would be completely flat by October 8th and Israel would have a new beachfront resort there already built by now.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:11 pm to 632627
quote:
If Israel wanted to commit genocide, that could’ve easily been completed by October 10th.
So you're saying it's not genocide as long as they are killing at slow enough of a rate?
Again it sounds like you're just upset about the words being used to describe Israel's actions.
Attempting to remove an entire ethnic group of people from an area of land that you would like to control. What exactly would you call that?
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 3:13 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:15 pm to 632627
quote:
I have no problem with what Israel is doing. They are fighting a war against barbarians that use human shields.
Yeah bro. Hamas should have remained on their military bases in a place the size of New Orleans with 3 times the population.
You can say they shouldn’t fight, but the human shields argument is irrelevant. They have nowhere to go that isn’t human shielded.
quote:
Why is Gaza the world’s largest open air prison? Israel pulled out almost 20 years ago
Yeah bro. They pulled out and then built a 30’ tall wall all the way around it, created a full military blockade, don’t allow authorized exit, don’t allow an airport or seaport, hell don’t even let them fish more than a couple miles offshore. Totally not an open air prison.
quote:
they’ve been under hamas’ rule since.
Something the Israeli government encouraged and facilitated. In fact they were a large part of creating the group in the first place.
quote:
If hamas didn’t constantly launch rockets or send suicide bombers into Israel, maybe Gaza’s borders would be as open as ours.
If they weren’t herded into a huge refugee camp with no hope of ever improving their circumstances, maybe they wouldn’t resort to terrorism?
This is why you started this thread and seem genuinely confused. Why would smart people you respect in other areas say Hamas talking points? Well maybe they aren’t Hamas talking points, and maybe it is you who regurgitates talking points. Everything you said was the laziest, most cliche talking point in the book and you wrapped them all into one.
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 3:16 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:16 pm to Seldom Seen
Exactly. Greenwald posted some pics from Haaretz in February and these guys did some satellite/infrared analysis that 50% of the buildings are gone and much of the rest are damaged. Israel told people GTFO out of north, bombed the north, and is now bombing the south. Blinken said 100% of the area is facing an acute hinger crisis. Physicians working there say this is the worst shite they have ever seen, complete destruction of society and medical care. That's a systematic chokeout of a population. If kids on TikTok see this and are upset about it, good for them.
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 3:28 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:17 pm to Seldom Seen
quote:
So you're saying it's not genocide as long as they are killing at slow enough of a rate?
Again it sounds like you're just upset about the words being used to describe Israel's actions.
Attempting to remove an entire ethnic group of people from an area of land that you would like to control. What exactly would you call that?
No, it’s not genocide, it’s war.
Ironically, hamas killed far more people on October 7 than Israel has killed per day since. The civilians killed by the IDF have been collateral damage. Hamas targeted Israeli civilians on October 7. Sounds like Hamas perpetrated genocide….
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:18 pm to 3nOut
quote:
but if Israel was "genociding them" that place would be completely flat by October 8th and Israel would have a new beachfront resort there already built by now.
I know genocide has a broad range by definition, but it’s still stupid of people to adopt this term for this situation because the word has a specific association branded in most people’s minds.
You can’t get away with genocide the old fashioned way anymore. It went out of style 50-60 years ago, the press is just too bad nowadays.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:19 pm to OBReb6
quote:
They pulled out and then built a 30’ tall wall all the way around it, created a full military blockade, don’t allow authorized exit, don’t allow an airport or seaport, hell don’t even let them fish more than a couple miles offshore. Totally not an open air prison.
Gee, i wonder why this is necessary? See oct. 7
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:19 pm to 632627
I don't like the Palestinians. I don't like the Israelis. However, our unabashed support for Israel and their influence on our foreign policy has resulted in decades of foreign policy blunders in that area of the world, which has radicalized many Muslims to not just despise the Zionist state of Israel, but the United States of America as well. The Israelis are a 100 lb chain around our necks.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:23 pm to 632627
quote:
No, it’s not genocide, it’s war.
I think people had hoped that there would be more precision. But, much of this comes down to a matter of perception. It appears to much of the world that Israel is just saying, "hey Hamas is under there, level everything." It doesn't appear Israel is "defending itself" anymore. There is a reason the rest of the world outside of the U.S., U.K., and Israel sees this conflict differently and I don't think it's anti-semitism. Haaretz reported there is legit concern about Bibi being arrested in the ICC case.
quote:
Whether or not the arrest warrants materialize, they have already had an effect. It is impossible to detach them from the postponement of any move to start the evacuation of Palestinian civilians as a prelude to the Rafah operation, and the sudden willingness of Netanyahu to accept an Egyptian proposal for a hostage agreement that will include the restoration of freedom of movement in Gaza and, more than anything else, the increasingly open actions by Israel to restore supply lines into Gaza after long months of obstruction.
Israeli officials admit that these are now directly connected to the government’s urgent efforts to fend off arrest warrants.
It’s part of a wider trend of belated realization that the costs of this war on the international front could become intolerable, whether for Israel as a country or for certain Israeli individuals. And while many, perhaps even a majority, of Israelis don’t particularly care if Netanyahu (and Mrs. Netanyahu) might have to give up his penchant for state-funded travel overseas, this isn’t just about him.
LINK
This post was edited on 5/17/24 at 3:28 pm
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:24 pm to OBReb6
quote:
I know genocide has a broad range by definition,
It doesn’t, and like many crimes, a defining characteristic is intent.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:24 pm to 632627
Perhaps it is justifiable genocide.
After all, we have justifiable homicide.
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:26 pm to 632627
quote:
No, it’s not genocide, it’s war.
It might not be a genocide, but it’s not a war either. Wars have at least 2 militaries. And they usually have one side at least fighting back. War is not what this is.
quote:
Ironically, hamas killed far more people on October 7 than Israel has killed per day since.
And the Allies killed more Germans in one day in Dresden than the Nazis did in any one day in the whole war. What does this have in common with October 7? They’re both totally irrelevant to the topic.
quote:
The civilians killed by the IDF have been collateral damage.
Which civilians killed by the IDF? The Palestinians in Gaza? Or the Israelis they killed in strikes on October 7th trying to get to Hamas? Because they killed a significant portion of the October 7 casualties themselves, in fact all of the ones who were found burned up (which is one of the stronger propaganda tools, implying the terrorists burned civilians alive).
Posted on 5/17/24 at 3:26 pm to TenWheelsForJesus
quote:
who is against governmental power being used against civilians indiscriminately
You're an idiot.
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