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re: Can this 747 take off?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:07 am to LNCHBOX
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:07 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
It doesn't need to go infinity speed. It only needed to keep up with the speed of the plane to bust the myth.
It does. Plane is stopped right, prop makes it go which causes wheel movement. Treadmill starts to spin up based on that wheel movement. It's just an exponential increase from there.
quote:
But the wheels aren't what makes the plane move. The question doesn't say to ignore how planes work. If you want to look at the question literally, the plane is going to fall off the conveyor belt. But it will move. If we're also staying in fantasy land with this magic conveyor belt defies reality, you also have to consider that the bearings/hub/axles etc are also magic and won't break.
Never said the wheels are what makes the plane move. If the wheels explode. I would say the treadmill goes to 0, because the wheels aren't moving anymore. Then the plane needs to just have enough motor to make it take off on whats left of the landing gear or belly friction unless that failure causes more significant failures to the plane. If the treadmill breaks first, then the plane takes off like it's on a normal runway.
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 9:08 am
1
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:09 am to Dam Guide
quote:
It does.
It doesn't, because the plane took off regardless of the conveyor belt
quote:
If the wheels explode. I would say the treadmill goes to 0, because the wheels aren't moving anymore. Then the plane needs to just have enough motor to make it take off on whats left of the landing gear or belly friction. If the treadmill breaks first, then the plane takes off like it's on a normal runway.
A mechanical failure of the plane seems like a really stupid reasoning for the plane not to take off when the whole situation is based on a magic conveyor belt.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:12 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
What forces are the wheels exerting on the plane to affect the momentum?
What creates lift for the plane?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:12 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
It doesn't, because the plane took off regardless of the conveyor belt
Because we are incapable of designing or engineering anything to meet this question. The exponential increase is beyond our real world engineering. Again, it is not a practical real world question we can even do. It's a dumb question.
quote:
A mechanical failure of the plane seems like a really stupid reasoning for the plane not to take off when the whole situation is based on a magic conveyor belt.
EXACTLY! It's a stupid question.
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 9:13 am
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:13 am to baldona
The reason you will do nothing but answer my questions with more questions is because you deep down know you're wrong.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:16 am to Dam Guide
quote:
Because we are incapable of designing or engineering anything to meet this question
We don't need it to go to infinity to determine if the myth is correct or not.
quote:
The exponential increase is beyond our real world engineering. Again, it is not a practical real world question we can even do. It's a dumb question.
But we were able to show with real world tests that the myth fails petty easily
quote:
EXACTLY! It's a stupid question.
If we consider a magic plane that wouldn't fall apart scraping on its belly, would that plane be able to take off? The answer is yes. Why, because the wheels are irrelevant, which is the conveyor belt is irrelevant.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:16 am to baldona
quote:
In the scenario in the op, the point is that the plane has 0 forward momentum because the conveyor is keeping the air speed 0. The conveyor is moving the airplane’s body the same as the wheels, there’s 0 forward momentum.
There wouldn’t be a 1:1 translation of force via friction of the conveyor being converted into motion of the aircraft through the wheels.
The thrust of the engine would bypass that by working on the air and easily surpass the force of the conveyor
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:20 am to Penrod
quote:
No. The thrust of the engines will definitely move the plane forward
Correct. In this impossible scenario where there is an instantaneous feedback loops the wheels and the conveyor belt would very quickly approach infinity speed, but the plane will move forward. The force exerted by the plane's engines are exerted on the air, not the ground, and the friction between the wheels and the treadmill is not nearly strong enough to stop the plane from moving.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:24 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
We don't need it to go to infinity to determine if the myth is correct or not.
We do to actually meet the original question.
quote:
But we were able to show with real world tests that the myth fails petty easily
The real world tests in no way show the exponential increase that would need to happen. The question from the very beginning is designed to cause argument because it is not achievable.
quote:
If we consider a magic plane that wouldn't fall apart scraping on its belly, would that plane be able to take off? The answer is yes. Why, because the wheels are irrelevant, which is the conveyor belt is irrelevant.
You are making an assumption on which side I am on in the magic conveyor and magic plane argument.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:26 am to Dam Guide
quote:
We do to actually meet the original question.
Why? showing the plane takes off at a much lower speed than infinity busts the myth.
quote:
The real world tests in no way show the exponential increase that would need to happen.
I'd like some of whatever you are on.
quote:
You are making an assumption on which side I am on in the magic conveyor and magic plane argument.
No, I'm illustrating why the plane would move on this magical belt (and would take off if the belt was long enough)
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:30 am to LNCHBOX
The Horse was named Friday
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:30 am to Street Hawk
The answer is no. Because if it was yes, there would be conveyor belt airports and aircraft carriers all over the world.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:31 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
The answer is no. Because if it was yes, there would be conveyor belt airports and aircraft carriers all over the world.
Sidewalk aggie?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:31 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
Why? showing the plane takes off at a much lower speed than infinity busts the myth.
The mythbusters experiment is not true to impossible hypothetical posed in this thread. The conveyor belt did not instantaneously match the speed of the wheels.
I think everyone agrees that the plane is going to move forward due to the thrust of the engines. To move forward the wheel has to spin faster than the conveyor belt, but if the conveyor belt instantaneously matches the speed of the wheel then that cannot happen. So almost immediately the speed of the conveyor belt and the speed of the wheels would quite literally race towards infinity.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:31 am to UpToPar
quote:
I think everyone agrees that the plane is going to move forward due to the thrust of the engines
Which thread are you reading ?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:32 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
Which thread are you reading ?
I've only read the last two pages or so and it seems most agree that the plane moves forward.
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:35 am to LNCHBOX
quote:
Why? showing the plane takes off at a much lower speed than infinity busts the myth.
Have you used PID controllers and speedometers?
We would have a little trouble getting the two speeds to exactly match. There would always be a delay between treadmill and wheel speed. No matter how fast you make ramp up, it just increases. It's not something we can solve in real life. The question is rigged to be an argument.
This post was edited on 4/11/24 at 9:37 am
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:38 am to LNCHBOX
It's a stupid proposal. There is no lift on the wings. Now add a fan in the front that blows air in proportion to what the wind would be in a normal takeoff and you'd have lift off. Until the plane reached the fan.
Planes fly because of air flow over wings. Not because of rpms on the wheels. Unless the rpms on the wheels are caused by a force (thrust) pushing the airfoil into the wind at velocity. You know, V1, V2 and rotate.
Does a car on a dyno get to California?
Planes fly because of air flow over wings. Not because of rpms on the wheels. Unless the rpms on the wheels are caused by a force (thrust) pushing the airfoil into the wind at velocity. You know, V1, V2 and rotate.
Does a car on a dyno get to California?
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:40 am to Dam Guide
quote:
. The question is rigged to be an argument.
Only if you don't understand how a plane moves
Posted on 4/11/24 at 9:41 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
Does a car on a dyno get to California?
Depends on if it's a jet car or a normal car that delivers power through teh wheels.
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