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re: 2 year inverted yield curve

Posted on 4/24/24 at 6:59 am to
Posted by SquatchDawg
Cohutta Wilderness
Member since Sep 2012
14190 posts
Posted on 4/24/24 at 6:59 am to
History would tell us to keep buying into pull backs as our markets recover with huge returns after these periods. However it looks to me like our next “crisis” will be a sovereign debt crisis and that’s much different than what we’ve faced in the past. In 2008 the Fed was able to paper over the mortgage crisis but can the do that if US debt is the issue?

If you were Japanese buying into the Nekkai crash in 1989 it took almost 30 years t get back to even. But, during that same period if you shifted to US markets you made out like a bandit.

I got conservative in 2008 as it seemed a real possibility that everything was going to blow up. It cost me a little on the rebound and I learned that you shouldn’t underestimate the PTB ability to kick the can down the road and keep things from breaking to protect their wealth.

The truth is nobody knows what the next crisis will be. I agree that the markets and assets are in a bubble but who knows when and what the catalyst will be that triggers a correction or worse yet, crash. About all you can do is not try to time it and keep your head on a swivel.

This post was edited on 4/24/24 at 7:05 am
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51597 posts
Posted on 4/24/24 at 9:39 am to
quote:

Real estate prices are wayyyy overinflated.


Yes and no. Prices in real estate are highly vulnerable to demand. Unlike something like potatoes or new shoes, you can't simply make new land to lower the price of existing land (housing is the real focus, but you need land upon which to build housing). This means demand has to be driven down by barriers to entry, normally that's going to be higher interest rates.

Here's the problem: rates were ridiculously low for such a long period that a massive amount of inventory is now in a scenario where if the seller sold, they would have trouble finding a replacement home to buy due to the increase in property values and the rise in interest rates. I speak on this from personal experience (we bought in 2014 with a 4% interest rate, our home is valued at nearly 2x what we paid for it, but selling then paying off the mortgage and using the rest to put down on even just a comparable sqft home would mean an increase in mortgage payments).

quote:

I'll buy a house if/when it happens and give a big middle finger to all these greedy people and real estate agents letting them know that "No you're 1500 sq ft house isn't worth remotely $500k, more like $200k"


In order for the real estate market to restructure to the price point you're talking about (a market where 1500sqft is going for $500k drops to $200k), we would need either a recession at least on the scale of 2008 or an outright depression.

Why? Because the issue, as SC has stated, isn't real estate so much as it is currency valuation. Too much currency floating around the economy devalues the currency. Inflation has become resistant to the Fed's current rates primarily because of continued excess consumer and federal debt creation (which is essentially money creation if you're never paying off/down your debt). You can't borrow your way out of debt like that and you can't create greater currency value by creating more currency.

Taking this all together means that in order for real estate prices to readjust, we're going to have to first go through a world of economic shite (read: Unemployment sustained above 10% for at least months, fricktons of bankruptcy filings, etc) in order to create deflation (which is where the liquidity level of the economy dries up because lots fewer have jobs at all, or jobs which enable them to buy only the bare minimum while being squeezed into the cheapest available living arrangements).

quote:

I hope there is another recession.


Be careful what you wish for.
This post was edited on 4/24/24 at 10:21 am
Posted by Big Scrub TX
Member since Dec 2013
33403 posts
Posted on 4/24/24 at 11:47 am to
quote:

You see on the link a large correction in 2008, we are the peak today. It could even be worse than a 2008 correction. It may get back in line with 1950 through 2000 rates.
Your "analysis" leaves out many MANY relevant factors.

For one, the 2008 bubble pop was led by housing, not trailed by it. And that was because housing had become a game - zero equity, crazy leverage, etc. As anyone on here knows who has bought a house in the last 10 years - regardless of how good of a credit you are - it's MUCH harder to get a mortgage than back then.

IOW, homeowners have much more equity and are much better credits in the first place.

You might also take a look at price to rent ratios from now as compared to 2008. I can guarantee you they are way more in line now than they were then. And that's really what a piece of real estate is - the PV of future cashflows to be delivered.
Posted by SquatchDawg
Cohutta Wilderness
Member since Sep 2012
14190 posts
Posted on 4/24/24 at 12:11 pm to
I read something recently that Boomers own almost 40% of the homes nationwide. That’s a huge number that will naturally unwind over the next 10 or so years. Even if they leave them to siblings there will be a lot of selling of mom and dad’s place into a younger group of buyers that if he not have the resources to pay the perceived worth.

I wonder how this will impact prices in the long term?
Posted by Bestbank Tiger
Premium Member
Member since Jan 2005
71060 posts
Posted on 4/24/24 at 12:31 pm to
quote:

However it looks to me like our next “crisis” will be a sovereign debt crisis and that’s much different than what we’ve faced in the past. In 2008 the Fed was able to paper over the mortgage crisis but can the do that if US debt is the issue?


If that happens we're all screwed anyway.
Posted by Art Blakey
Member since Aug 2023
90 posts
Posted on 4/25/24 at 9:01 am to
quote:

Usually recession follows the inversion. The Following recession usually comes within months.

We’re 2 years in now and no recession.

I’ve never seen anything like this.

How long can this go?


We haven't been in fiscal dominance since the 40s.
Posted by Art Blakey
Member since Aug 2023
90 posts
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:28 am to
LINK

Fantastic meme thread of the current situation.
Posted by Art Blakey
Member since Aug 2023
90 posts
Posted on 4/25/24 at 12:22 pm to
LINK

Fiscal dominance in mariner form.
Posted by Virgo
Member since Aug 2017
157 posts
Posted on 4/25/24 at 5:21 pm to
Would y’all say now is a risky time to switch jobs to O&G where the risk is recession and layoff due to low seniority vs more security at current job due to higher seniority?
Posted by Bard
Definitely NOT an admin
Member since Oct 2008
51597 posts
Posted on 4/26/24 at 8:24 am to
quote:

Would y’all say now is a risky time to switch jobs to O&G where the risk is recession and layoff due to low seniority vs more security at current job due to higher seniority?


I would say it's risky, yes.

PCE for March came in higher than expectations (meaning it has gone up every month since January when it's supposed to be doing the opposite), GDP dropped precipitously from Q4 2023 to Q1 2024, oil has been on a steady increase (except for yesterday) since mid-December and will likely continue.

It seems we may finally be getting into the economic shitstorm that billions and billions of federal and consumer debt-creation has been holding off for a couple of years now.
This post was edited on 4/26/24 at 8:53 am
Posted by Warfox
B.R. Native (now in MA)
Member since Apr 2017
3142 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 10:29 am to
quote:

For my 401k, this is The Year of the Money Markets. All of my new allocations have been going into VFVXX or SPRXX. That said, I'm still holding my dividend stocks (since almost all of them reinvest).

I'm risk-averse so while some here were making good bank on the bulls earlier in the year, I was getting ready for what I believe is coming. That said, I'm not entirely convinced we're into the early stages of the shite yet (waiting to see Unemployment moving upward above 4% with momentum).


The shite is indeed coming, but when is the ?

Posted by Powerman
Member since Jan 2004
162220 posts
Posted on 4/27/24 at 10:56 am to
quote:

I'm racking my brains over this. I'm 39. Tempted to put all future 403b/401k contributions for my wife and I into money market/cash starting this week with the anticipation of a hard recession similar to 2007-2009. I would not touch all current investments. Reassess 14-18 months out? Wise or foolish?

Keep going as normal

If we do have a drastic dip I would increase your contribution rate to as much as you can reasonably afford at that point
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