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re: Someone explain the Trump fraud case to me?
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:38 pm to Obtuse1
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:38 pm to Obtuse1
quote:
If you misrepresent your income/employment/assets on a loan application you have committed fraud (subject to defenses). If the lender finds the "errors" and still issues the loan based on the correct facts you have still committed fraud. The fact the loans were paid back in full and on time does not matter in this case, further, it makes no difference that as a result of the former the banks did not suffer any damages, this is because it isn't the banks that are bringing the suit. This is a suit filed by the NY OAG in the name of the People of NY. In common law, this is called a Parens Patriae action. The public policy behind this is the people have a right to a fair marketplace. The codified basis for the suit is NY's Executive Law.
Thanks. There are multiple issues not discussed
First - huge difference between misrepresenting and fraud
Second- did trump sign personally or on behalf of corporations? Or at all?
Third - if I tell you I have 10 gazillion dollars in assets and list them and you k ow that number but disagree and still give the loan, you have acknowledged you are basing the loan off of your numbers. So... No fraud
0
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:40 pm to dukkbill
So, simply because the judge thinks it is worth $18M that means the numbers are wrong? That doesn’t make sense to me. What is the next step? Also, the Trump team agree to forgo the statute of limitations? Thanks for the clarification.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 4:53 pm to TDTOM
I’m speaking generally, not specific to Mar-a-Lago. There are multiple properties that are part of this case.
Hypothetically - If there is rental revenue recorded at one of the properties that is not accurate. Or if the size of the space in an apartment or office building was misrepresented. Say a rent roll misrepresents the occupied space.
An appraiser isn’t going to physically be able to measure everything and may rely on what is listed on the documentation.
Hypothetically - If there is rental revenue recorded at one of the properties that is not accurate. Or if the size of the space in an apartment or office building was misrepresented. Say a rent roll misrepresents the occupied space.
An appraiser isn’t going to physically be able to measure everything and may rely on what is listed on the documentation.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 5:32 pm to deltaland
It never went to trial. The trial is set for this coming Monday. The wack job judge issued a summary judgement on disputed facts. That is what the actual trial is for. In order to squash Trump from presenting evidence of this BS prosecution, the judge issues this ruling, then says they can not argue otherwise at upcoming trial on the rest of the case and just to make sure….he sanctioned all of Trumps lawyers for making frivolous arguements. Arguements that are entirely correct.
And not one dime was defrauded from any bank, lender, or government
And not one dime was defrauded from any bank, lender, or government
Posted on 9/27/23 at 5:38 pm to TDTOM
Three things are all going on asynchronously
First, the civil trial is scheduled next week. As it stands now, it would be on admin penalties. Trump et al could not challenge fraud. James is seeking 250 MM
Kise will appeal, but he may also seek an emergency stay. If the appeals court grants the emergency stay it will delay the civil trial until the SJ appeal is decided
Trump has an ongoing appeal on an action against the judge. He alleges some of the evidence is too old to use against him. That could be decided as early as tomorrow
First, the civil trial is scheduled next week. As it stands now, it would be on admin penalties. Trump et al could not challenge fraud. James is seeking 250 MM
Kise will appeal, but he may also seek an emergency stay. If the appeals court grants the emergency stay it will delay the civil trial until the SJ appeal is decided
Trump has an ongoing appeal on an action against the judge. He alleges some of the evidence is too old to use against him. That could be decided as early as tomorrow
Posted on 9/27/23 at 5:43 pm to TDTOM
quote:
The idiots (Progressives and Never-Trumpers/Ron-Bots) on this board think Trump can borrow tens of millions of dollars and just make up values. They have zero idea how grown-up world works.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 5:50 pm to AubieinNC2009
quote:
Saying values are higher than what they are is fraud.
Are you fricking kidding me?
Just admit now that you are a troll or continue to prove your complete lack of intelligence.
What an idiotic moron…
Do you realize that you claiming to be an intelligent human being is more fraudulent than everything Trump has been accused of COMBINED?
This post was edited on 9/27/23 at 5:51 pm
Posted on 9/27/23 at 6:42 pm to dukkbill
quote:
First, the civil trial is scheduled next week. As it stands now, it would be on admin penalties. Trump et al could not challenge fraud. James is seeking 250 MM
Trump's team can't fight in court if it was not fraudulent?
quote:
If the appeals court grants the emergency stay it will delay the civil trial until the SJ appeal is decided
SJ? James on the old evidence?
Appreciate the effort.
This post was edited on 9/27/23 at 6:43 pm
Posted on 9/27/23 at 6:59 pm to TDTOM
Sorry for the abbreviations
Unless the appeals court stays the judges ruling, the trial is just on the penalty. If there is a stay and later overturning of the verdict, then the issue of fraud is part of the trial
The judge ruled on a motion for summary judgment ( that’s my “SJ” abbreviation) Tge ruling states as a matter of law Trump et al committed fraud because no reasonable person could determine there was no fraud on the expected evidence. The appeal will be on this summary judgment (SJ) ruling. If the appeals court says that’s improper, the issue goes to trial
Similarly, if the other appeal says the older evidence can’t be used against Trump, then the appeals court would likely remand to the judge to rule again based on their decision about the evidence. In short, either are good outcomes for Team Trump.
As for prospects, as obtuse mentioned, it’s NY and there appears to be present bias against Trump. Thus I wouldn't hold my breath based on the politics of the situation. In other circumstances, I’d say granting an SJ when there is a disputed fact on valuation would seem to be atypical. Thus I’d think an appeals court would at least allow the parties to put on a case
Unless the appeals court stays the judges ruling, the trial is just on the penalty. If there is a stay and later overturning of the verdict, then the issue of fraud is part of the trial
The judge ruled on a motion for summary judgment ( that’s my “SJ” abbreviation) Tge ruling states as a matter of law Trump et al committed fraud because no reasonable person could determine there was no fraud on the expected evidence. The appeal will be on this summary judgment (SJ) ruling. If the appeals court says that’s improper, the issue goes to trial
Similarly, if the other appeal says the older evidence can’t be used against Trump, then the appeals court would likely remand to the judge to rule again based on their decision about the evidence. In short, either are good outcomes for Team Trump.
As for prospects, as obtuse mentioned, it’s NY and there appears to be present bias against Trump. Thus I wouldn't hold my breath based on the politics of the situation. In other circumstances, I’d say granting an SJ when there is a disputed fact on valuation would seem to be atypical. Thus I’d think an appeals court would at least allow the parties to put on a case
Posted on 9/27/23 at 7:09 pm to deltaland
Who are the victims??? I doubt any bank loan him money based on the values he supplied.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 7:12 pm to deltaland
quote:
This. Do people really think banks just accept what you tell them and loan out millions without any due diligence?
There are vastly different levels of diligence put into something that is being directly financed versus something that’s being used as collateral.
Posted on 9/27/23 at 7:28 pm to AubieinNC2009
quote:
Trump even tried to put in a "worthless clause" in his valuations stating banks/lenders should not rely on them
So...not fraud
Posted on 9/27/23 at 7:42 pm to udtiger
Any losses on the loans?
Posted on 9/27/23 at 8:01 pm to deltaland
This is all you need to know….
X Link on Judge
X Link on Judge
Posted on 9/27/23 at 8:21 pm to tango029
quote:
Engoron also found that Trump inflated the value of his Mar-a-Lago club by at least 2,300%, claiming the property assessed by the county between $18 million and $27.6 million was actually worth between $426,529,614 and $612,110,496.
Both you and the judge are morons. The assessment is multiplied by a millage rate to get taxes, and is not based on current value. The current value of my home is more than 3x the assessment.
Posted on 9/28/23 at 4:06 am to Free888
quote:
Both you and the judge are morons. The assessment is multiplied by a millage rate to get taxes, and is not based on current value. The current value of my home is more than 3x the assessment.
The judge isn't saying the property is worth 18m-27m. He's saying is fraudulent to say that a property appraised at that value is worth 23x (half a billion dollars) that appraisal. Note: this is all from 2011
Even commercial real estate valuations today only put it in the 300m range.
So do you believe that 3 years after the real estate bubble popped, that a property valued at 300m TODAY, was worth 400-600m 11 years ago?
Tell me you're not that moronic.
Posted on 9/28/23 at 4:21 am to I B Freeman
quote:
Who are the victims??? I doubt any bank loan him money based on the values he supplied.
Deutsche bank loaned him hundreds of millions on extremely favorable terms 2% vs 8%. He also won the Washington old post office renovation contract from the government based on those financials.
Posted on 9/28/23 at 4:50 am to TDTOM
quote:whatever shite the DNC/media/union/tech cabal tell them to 'think'
The idiots on this board think
These idiots have never exercised their brains in search of a cogent thought for themselves.
useful idiots have always paved the way for dystopia.
Posted on 9/28/23 at 4:52 am to tango029
quote:
Deutsche bank loaned him hundreds of millions
Did they get their part of the contract fulfilled??
quote:
won the Washington old post office renovation contract
Did the renovation get accomplished on time? and within budget?
sounds like all parties of the contracts were happy with their results to me
only people pissed off are the idiots who want something for nothing
This post was edited on 9/28/23 at 4:54 am
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