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Someone explain this okra in gumbo controversy.

Posted on 11/7/17 at 9:35 pm
Posted by NATidefan
Two hours North of Birmingham
Member since Dec 2008
36580 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 9:35 pm
serious eats - the real story of gumbo,
okra, and file


quote:

19th century recipes make clear that okra and tomatoes were the original base ingredients, and the first protein that consistently found its way into the pot was chicken. Only later were shellfish like oysters and shrimp incorporated. It takes a remarkable leap of imagination—or, perhaps, a dull lack of it—to think that gumbo evolved from bouillabaisse.


quote:

So if not bouillabaisse, where did gumbo come from? The answer can be found in its very name. In several West African languages, the word for okra is ki ngombo, or, in its shortened form, gombo." Early on, the word was frequently used alongside "okra" by English writers. In the 1840s, when okra was just starting to be grown widely outside the coastal South, newspaper ads commonly offered seeds for "Okra or Gombo." "Gombo" is still the French word for okra today.



quote:

The article also noted, "This is the dish we in America call gombo. However, we must distinguish this American stew from the one called gombo févi (italics added). This is done with the pods of a species of mallow, known to botanists as the sabdariffa." Févi, it turns out, is the Louisiana Creole word for okra, and the author notes that its thickening power is even stronger than that of powdered sassafras, which the Creoles called filé.

But which came first, the févi or the filé? Some commentators have argued for filé and claim the word "gumbo" actually comes from kombo, the Choctaw term for powdered sassafras. But I've not been able to turn up a single example of a dish being called "kombo" in any 18th or 19th century source, while there are countless examples of a dish made from okra being called either "gombo" or "gumbo." By the time Peyroux was writing his treatise on sassafras, Africans had been present in Louisiana for some 60 years, plenty long enough for their traditional okra-based stews to have entered the larger culinary culture of the colony.




quote:

The most probable path is that Louisianians were eating a thick stew they called "gombo" after its main ingredient, okra. Cooks found they could achieve a similar thickness using the filé powder made by the local Choctaw, and they started substituting that when okra wasn't available.



Seems to me it should be in there to be traditional gumbo, so why do some people on here act like it shouldnt?






This post was edited on 11/9/17 at 12:12 am
Posted by BigPerm30
Member since Aug 2011
29355 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 9:39 pm to
quote:

Seems to me it should be in there to be traditional gumbo.


Along with tomatoes, chicken, sausage and seafood. Mushrooms give it a nice earthy flavor too.
Posted by NATidefan
Two hours North of Birmingham
Member since Dec 2008
36580 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 9:43 pm to
I mean if the word gumbo comes from the word for okra.....

Tomatoes seem to be a traditional ingredient to, fwiw.
This post was edited on 11/7/17 at 9:47 pm
Posted by Martini
Near Athens
Member since Mar 2005
49179 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 9:56 pm to
I don't put okra because I don't like it. I do put tomatoes but I'm Irish and don't really care about tradition. I also have never once had a bowl of my gumbo pushed back to me because it might have a tomato in it.
Posted by NATidefan
Two hours North of Birmingham
Member since Dec 2008
36580 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 10:06 pm to
I get not putting it in if you don't like it.

What I dont get is hating on people that do when thats where the name comes from.

Now my family never made it when i was growing up. but every time I had it, okra was in there. Not gumbo to me without it really.

I usually do sausage and shrimp cause I like shrimp, but my GF doesnt.


This post was edited on 11/7/17 at 10:07 pm
Posted by c on z
Zamunda
Member since Mar 2009
129054 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 10:09 pm to
quote:

What I dont get is hating on people that do when thats where the name comes from.


:grisgris:
Posted by Zappas Stache
Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
Member since Apr 2009
40610 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 10:23 pm to
quote:

Seems to me it should be in there to be traditional gumbo.



But no roux according to this article. And this article is talking about New Orleans Gumbo and points out similar dishes existed wherever there were west african slaves. So where does gumbo from acadiana fit in to this story? Does it exist separate from NOLA gumbo back then or did migrants from NOLA and cajuns who visited NOLA take the NOLA gumbo recipe with them and adapt it to local conditions?
Posted by NATidefan
Two hours North of Birmingham
Member since Dec 2008
36580 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 11:07 pm to
I would imagine the roux was kinda like the file, was another way that came along of thickening it...
Posted by LakeViewLSU
Baton Rouge
Member since Jun 2009
17730 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 11:14 pm to
Gumbo, Chili, and Jambalaya Nazis are , by far, the worst people on earth.
Posted by MeridianDog
Home on the range
Member since Nov 2010
14538 posts
Posted on 11/7/17 at 11:55 pm to
I make my gumbo the way my momma made it and get an exemption from any written rules or regulations because of that.

Sort of like a grandfather clause, except I have no recollection of Pa Pa ever eating gumbo. He was more of a squirrel or chicken dumplings eating kind of guy. Also, he was not a cook - too busy farming from dawn to dark. In their house Maw Maw did all of the cooking.

My gumbo recipe is a deep dark secret, but my love for all Culinary things Creole, Cajun, Black, Choctaw and French is well known.


Posted by NATidefan
Two hours North of Birmingham
Member since Dec 2008
36580 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 12:16 am to
I just don't get the people that get upset about using okra....

I get people not using okra and still calling it gumbo.
Posted by Gris Gris
OTIS!NO RULES FOR SAUCES ON STEAK!!
Member since Feb 2008
49026 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 12:35 am to
Some people like it in various gumbos and some don’t. Not a big deal.
There’s also the South LA and Creole versions.

Varies by taste and geography.
Posted by jefforize
Member since Feb 2008
45004 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 12:37 am to
seems to come down to personal preference.

I like okra in a gumbo. I also like file. green onion on top too.

sure as heck not a fan of tomatoes in it , though

Posted by NATidefan
Two hours North of Birmingham
Member since Dec 2008
36580 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 12:40 am to
I put canned diced tomatoes in mine early on when cooking. they pretty much disappear by time it's done. Just left with some flavor.
Posted by Nawlens Gator
louisiana
Member since Sep 2005
5907 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 12:51 am to

Okra and tomatoes are always in our Gumbo.

Posted by jefforize
Member since Feb 2008
45004 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 12:52 am to
Yeah, Id still eat it. Im not picky. I dont care for the texture if i get a spoonful of all tomato, but that can be dealt with fairly easily.

Oddly enough i dont mind okras texture which is what i think a lot of people get turned off about
Posted by bdevill
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Mar 2008
11996 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 6:08 am to
quote:

why do some people on here act like you shouldnt?


the okra slime.. they can't handle it or don't know how to cook the okra down first, so it doesn't make any.
Posted by BigDropper
Member since Jul 2009
8123 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 6:09 am to
My ma'amaw never made her gumbo with okra because my pa'paw didn't like it.

I use it in mine because my Wife-lady loves it. Do what you like and forget the critics.
Posted by StringedInstruments
Member since Oct 2013
19751 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 6:11 am to
I find that people from South Louisiana just have an inherent personality trait that hardens them to a rigid definition of tradition. It makes everything that's not endemic to their locale wrong or not good enough. So if they grew up not putting tomatoes in gumbo, then real gumbo shouldn't have it and any gumbo that does is just not the real thing.

I lived in New Orleans until I was 12 and definitely have felt similar feelings about things, but my parents who lived 40 years in Louisiana are much worse.

Since moving from New Orleans, I don't think I've ever heard my mother or father give credit to cajun or creole food served anywhere outside of Louisiana. Not even my home cooking when I followed traditional recipes to the T. Go to a highly reviewed restaurant run by a highly qualified chef from New Orleans who studied in New Orleans and worked in New Orleans? "It was alright, but it wasn't like home," is their response.

One time I made king cake, and it was fricking dynamite. Used Emeril's recipe. My mom said, "This is really good, but it's not like Gambino's used to be when I was a kid."

One time I made french bread. Worked all day on it and thought it was really good. My parents agreed it was pretty good and then started talking about how real New Orleans french bread gets its flavor from water from the Mississippi.

So a historical investigation into gumbo is not going to solve the gumbo controversy because real gumbo - or anything connected to South Louisiana - is defined by where you're from and how you experienced it growing up.
This post was edited on 11/8/17 at 6:12 am
Posted by Panny Crickets
Fort Worth, TX
Member since Sep 2008
5596 posts
Posted on 11/8/17 at 7:26 am to
quote:

"It was alright, but it wasn't like home," is their response.


Because in restaurants, 99% of the time it is never like home.
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