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Closed Cell Foam Insulation

Posted on 7/14/20 at 8:55 am
Posted by TheBoo
South to Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
5087 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 8:55 am
I was in the attic of a newer construction, upscale house yesterday and noticed that there were no ridge or soffit vents, but had foam insulation sprayed under the entire roof, and the temperature was noticeably cool after the heat of yesterday.

Anyone have any experience having closed cell foam insulation sprayed in to their home? Any info or thoughts are appreciated.
Posted by DawgCountry
Great State of GA
Member since Sep 2012
31476 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 9:48 am to
I looked into it. Its very expensive (7K for my house). But obviously would save more in the long term. I had someone else tell me you then need to pay for some kind of air filtration because the house is so tight, you can get bacteria/mold/etc build up because the same air is recirculated throughout the house. Not sure how true that is but it makes sense.
Posted by Clint Torres
Member since Oct 2011
2787 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 10:11 am to
Closed cell doesn't allow water vapor to pass thru and can make the house susceptible to moisture/mold issues if humidity isn't well regulated by the HVAC system. It's important to make sure sufficient fresh air is brought into the house if it is very "tight." Whole home dehumidifiers can solve these issues.
This post was edited on 7/14/20 at 10:12 am
Posted by gumbeaux
Member since Jun 2004
4729 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 10:43 am to
Any HVAC installer should know to add fresh air to the system. In fact, when building my house, my installer asked me if I will use sprayed foam insulation In the walls so he would know to add fresh air.

One important note....the foam can push wiring and plumbing past the studs as it expands. The insulator will use a device to mill the excess foam so as to be flush with the studs. The milling device can get into the wiring and plumbing if pushed beyond the studs. So be sure this doesn’t happen.
Posted by CrawDude
Baton Rouge
Member since Apr 2019
5594 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 10:57 am to
Open cell foam insulation is typically used to spray attics, not closed cell. It’s my understanding if you can not get 100% coverage of the attic, often difficult to impossible on many older homes, it should not be done, but easily done on new construction.

Paul LaGrange, forensic building inspector, who hosts the Home Improvement radio program on WWL on Sat has a sister spray foam insulation company, and he said they turn down many jobs spray foaming attics of pre-existing homes because it’s not possible to get 100% coverage to the roof line near the soffits. In those cases, assuming they have already have adequate passive roof ventilation (ridge vents,etc), he recommends better sealing of the attic with the conditioned living area below, more insulation, perhaps radiant barriers, etc.
This post was edited on 7/14/20 at 11:35 am
Posted by LSUtigerME
Walker, LA
Member since Oct 2012
3889 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 11:21 am to
You also need combustion air for gas appliances in the attic.

It’s very expensive to foam the rafters, in addition to the problems it may create.

I looked into it for my home. It would have taken over 20 years to break even on straight return, not accounting for time value/interest/etc. I ended doing open cell in my walls and blown fiberglass to R-38 in the attic. It seems to work very well and my utility bills are pretty low for the size of my home.
Posted by 4WHLN
Drinking at the Cottage Inn
Member since Mar 2013
7609 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 11:47 am to
You would have to run a different mechanical system like others have stated. These new units are very expensive and the filters for them most often have to be purchased online.

Another added expense are the shingles. You can not foam and attic and install regular roof shingles. The radiant barrier foam creates will cause the surface temp of the shingles to get hot enough to melt a typical shingle.

Foam is not really worth the cost unless you are going to foam the entire house and its a house you plan on staying in for a long time.
Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
19956 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 12:06 pm to
You might spend some time researching sealed attics and moisture issues.

I think it also impacts roof warranties. The envelope of a house is a system of many parts. Walls, vapor barriers, insulation, roofing, venting, etc. all have to be designed to work together. You can't always just change one piece and be OK.
Posted by TheBoo
South to Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
5087 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 12:25 pm to
Thanks for all of the feedback. I found it odd that they had had no vents and full insulation, but it was an extremely high-end recently-built house. Would running 1x4 slats across the rafters and cutting regular fiberglass insulation cause the same issues as blown in foam?

I thought of putting an attic fan or two to circulate the air but I've heard that that can cause moisture issues by pulling too much humidity into the attic, due to our humid climate. So I'm not sure what I can do at this point.
Posted by LSUtigerME
Walker, LA
Member since Oct 2012
3889 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 12:36 pm to
quote:

Would running 1x4 slats across the rafters and cutting regular fiberglass insulation cause the same issues as blown in foam?

Why do you want to install insulation on the roof rafters?

quote:

I thought of putting an attic fan or two to circulate the air but I've heard that that can cause moisture issues by pulling too much humidity into the attic, due to our humid climate. So I'm not sure what I can do at this point.


What are you trying to accomplish?
Posted by CrawDude
Baton Rouge
Member since Apr 2019
5594 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 1:05 pm to
quote:

TheBoo

What are you attempting to accomplish or problem you wish to solve?

Your HVAC having trouble keeping up or maintaining a set temperature in your in your home? Lots of people are having this issue in this heat wave of high temperature coupled with high humidity, and it’s to be expected.

Do you currently have some type of attic ventilation -passive ventilation like ridge vents, or active ventilation like “whirlybird” roof vents or some types power ventilator? If so, are they sized properly?

What type (blown, batt) and how of insulation do you currently have in your attic? < R-30, > R-30?

I also briefly looked into attic foam insulation a couple years ago and quickly nixed that idea for all the reasons mentioned by others in this thread. Now my focus is on sealing potential larger attic leaks/heat infiltration into the conditioned living area and increasing attic insulation above R-30. I’m considering radiant barrier installation which can potentially lower attic temps 15-25 degrees F but made no decisions on that yet. Radiant barriers also seem to have a long payback or break even point relative to cost (assuming it is not DYI), but if it improves home comfort significantly then that’s a priority to me over cost - within reason.
This post was edited on 7/14/20 at 3:06 pm
Posted by lgtiger
LA
Member since May 2005
1321 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 2:16 pm to
I have open cell in my attic under the roof deck. Attic never gets hot. A very good resource is the LAhouse next to LSU baseball stadium. They are currently closed but you can access their research on different insulation and building methods.

LA House

Spot in video that talks about spray foam
This post was edited on 7/14/20 at 4:12 pm
Posted by TheBoo
South to Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
5087 posts
Posted on 7/14/20 at 4:37 pm to
quote:

Why do you want to install insulation on the roof rafters?

I'm asking if that's an option...

quote:

What are you trying to accomplish?

Lower the temperature in my attic in the summer. My outdoor AC unit is in direct sunlight throughout the hottest part of the day, and my attic gets extremely hot. My AC doesn't get behind but it works hard to do its job. I currently have blown open cell insulation and ridge vents and soffit vents, no whirly birds. Looking for options to lower the overall temperature in my attic during the summer to help my AC work more efficiently.
I understand heat is to be expected in the summer... I'm looking to mitigate it a bit if possible.

Last month I was doing a little organizing in the attic and brought an outdoor fan up there and kicked it on by the attic access, and the decrease in temperature was very noticeable after about a half hour. I left it on for most of the day and noticed the AC didn't have to work as hard to maintain temps in the house also. However I was told by a buddy that prolonged forced air ventilation in our climate can cause moisture issues.
Posted by CrawDude
Baton Rouge
Member since Apr 2019
5594 posts
Posted on 7/15/20 at 10:31 am to
quote:

TheBoo

Well your Buddy is not wrong. Just need to remember when puttng fans in the attic, as you recently did, the fan has to pull air from somewhere and b/c that fan was near the attic stairs it was probably pulling cooler, conditioned air from below. I know that doesn’t square with your comment that ithe HVAC didn’t seemed not to work as hard and cooled better - I can’t explain that.

You have passive ventilation ridge vents and blown in insulation. You can certainly delve more into open cell foam attic insulation, but you can also look into increasing the amount insulation, e.g., going from R-30 to R-38 (or higher), “sealing” significant air infiltration areas between attic and house below (recessed lights, attic door, etc) and do some internet research on radiant barriers (which if you are handy can be a DYI job) which has the potential to reduce attic temperatures 15 to 25 degrees in the heat of summer.

Putting bat insulation between the attic rafter or adding fans to the attic is not going to accomplish what you are trying to achieve.
This post was edited on 7/15/20 at 4:22 pm
Posted by TheBoo
South to Louisiana
Member since Aug 2012
5087 posts
Posted on 7/15/20 at 4:20 pm to
quote:

fan was near the attic stairs it was probably pulling cooler, conditioned air from the house below


My only attic access is in my storage shed on the back side of my car porch. Had the roll up door open on that and it was pulling outside air in, on a hot day, which is what made me consider installing soffit vent fans or something. I just don't have a lot of knowledge of the results (or consequences) of applying positive pressure to an attic.

I'll look into radiant barriers.
Posted by HighlyFavoredTiger
TexLaArk
Member since Jun 2018
914 posts
Posted on 7/15/20 at 9:26 pm to
I’m not sure how spray foam would work in an existing home attic, as some have mentioned, it might be hard to cover everything. But I can attest to how well open cell works when correctly applied at construction.
We recently bought a 6 year old home that has it, the shingles still look like new and I took some things I store in the attic up there today, it felt like it was in the mid 70 degree range, my space above the garage has walls covered with foam and an entry door to the attic, when you step in it’s almost like walking into the house. Air from in the house circulates into the attic through recessed light fixtures and maybe some other means that I haven’t identified, but it works great. 4100 sq ft and hot month light bills $280-320.
Posted by Citica8
Duckroost, LA
Member since Dec 2012
3769 posts
Posted on 7/17/20 at 7:40 pm to
A couple things to look at, the soffit vents typically have a bug screen on them. They can get dirty and restrict the airflow coming in to the attic. You can take them down and clean them or just buy some new ones they aren’t that expensive and it’s definitely less work to just replace than to clean. That’s if you have traditional soffit vents not vinyl or the continuous vents. If you have those you can use a blower or lightly wash them.

Ridge vents depending on the design/manufacturer can also get restricted, a little harder to fix.

Based on my research prior to building my house on insulation, you’re better off insuring that any penetrations between your conditioned space and attic are sealed as well as you can and making sure you have adequate loose fill insulation, that way you’re not pulling hot dirty humid air from your hotter attic, than less hot leaking windows/doors.

Posted by RoyalWe
Prairieville, LA
Member since Mar 2018
3667 posts
Posted on 7/18/20 at 6:10 am to
I bought a home with full spray foam insulation on rafters. My smaller prior home's electricity bill was higher than this significantly larger home. I guess it's like a pool -- doesn't add much value when selling the house but is nice to have.
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