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Capital One Charge Back scenario- Am I Really Just SOL?

Posted on 9/26/24 at 3:25 pm
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17022 posts
Posted on 9/26/24 at 3:25 pm
Apologies up front as this went way longer than I had anticipated. So skip the TL/DR to get the short version.


The long version:

I ordered a custom, laser engraved map of the Biloxi Bay for my dad in November of 2023 from a company online called Sportsman's Connection. They looked reputable, had been in business for years and had many positive reviews on their maps.

They had a long list on their site of locations you could choose from, Biloxi Bay being one of them so it did not appear to me to be a custom request, but they did say that custom maps would take longer to produce and one should expect longer delivery times. Something along the lines of 60-90 days. The order was linked to an account I had created on their website. After a month or so, zero correspondence had occurred since the initial order confirmation email. The status of the order from my online account was "Awaiting Fulfillment." They had an internal messaging system that was directly linked to your order that they recommended you to use for any questions regarding your order. I sent a message looking for an update on my order status. No reply was given. I also sent an email from my personal email account to the email addresses provided on their website. No responses. Phone calls also went unanswered, though I did leave voicemails with my call back info.

I received an email update on January 26. 2024 advising me that my order had updated from "Awaiting Fulfillment" to "In Production." After waiting another month or so with no change, I sent several more inquires regarding status updates to no avail. I gave the order approximately 90 days from the "In Production" update to account for the custom map delay, since the company does not tell you which maps they already have molds for and which would have to be custom designed. So by May I was pretty pissed and ready to cancel my order.

I figured I'd try calling one last time and to my surprise, the call was answered by a customer service representative. At this point, he indicated that the company had been bombarded with orders around the holiday season which created a backlog of orders. This was a small, family owned company, he said, who was understaffed for the swell of orders they received. He assured me that my order was in the works and that this was the first order for the Biloxi Bay so the custom mold was likely delaying my order more than those of pre-existing molds. My order should be completed in another month or maybe even 2 and he thanked me for being so patient.

This is where I now feel like a sucker because I figured since I had waited this long, another month or so is not a big deal, especially since I had now received this direct feedback from the merchant confirming my order status. Of course, this wasn't written feedback, so I have no evidence of this update to delivery date. So by the end of July with no further updates from the merchant I finally decided I had had enough and was going to cancel the order and request a refund. Upon trying to access my account, the website is down: scmaps.com

They also do not answer or return calls (again). After doing a quick Google search, I am in good company of people who have been screwed over with the exact same story. Over 200 reports to the Better Business Bureau from people who ordered in the same time frame as me.

So this brings me to my current predicament, which is dealing with Capital One regarding a charge back on my Visa card. Capital One has denied my dispute indicating that too much time has elapsed since my order date. According to Cap 1 customer service, I had 90 days from the initial charge date to file a charge back dispute. I have explained to them that this was a custom online order, in which the delivery date was only estimated at the time of order, not firm, and that it was projected to be several months AFTER the order was moved to "In production", not from the order date, and that this delivery date would put me already beyond the 90 days of the initial order date for disputing. Of course, I am speaking to Indian customer support who offers nothing except their rehearsed lines about 90 days from the date of the charge. They have requested all info/evidence I have to support my claims, which is the two updates I received regarding the initial order and the second update that showed it "in production." Since the website is down, I cannot access internal message I sent, nor can I provide the phone call in which the delivery date was postponed by the merchant.

I have read online that you can request a chargeback up to 120 days from the expected delivery date but the Cap 1 customer service is telling me that is incorrect and that it is only 90 days from the order date. I have already been denied via online letter once from Cap 1 on this matter with no explanation other than too much time has elapsed since the initial charge to file a dispute.

Is anyone familiar with this? Do I have any other recourse? My current plan is to file this again with Capital One but the only avenue they offer is to send information via an online portal they provide and they will then send an approval/denial response via my app statements.

This is all I can find on Cap 1's site regarding the timeline:
To file a dispute digitally, you need to file the dispute within 90 days of the transaction date. If 90 days have passed, you can still file a dispute by calling the number on the back of your card.


The bolded is how I filed my complaint and yet I was denied for elapsed time. When I called today for clarification, I was told you only have 90 days from the date of the initial charge, but it clearly says if 90 days have passed, you can still report by phone. So my attempts to get clarification are stonewalled by customer service reps that are giving me contradictory information.

Short Version:
I ordered a custom map online in Nov 2023. Customer protracted delivery date, never sent item, and is now off the grid. Capital One Visa is denying my request for a charge back due to elapsed time from initial order. Online research indicated you have up to 120 days from expected delivery date. Cap 1 Indian lady is telling me 90 days from initial charge, no exceptions and no one else I can speak to. Do I have a legitimate claim for a dispute at this point or am I SOL due to the elapsed time from the order? Is the time frame really only 90 days from initial order date or is it 120 days (or 90 days) from the expected delivery date?

I have opened a new document portal in which I am going to resubmit the same information that I have already been denied on. Expecting the same result with no explanation.
Posted by rocksteady
Member since Sep 2013
1748 posts
Posted on 9/26/24 at 6:46 pm to
Woah. I skimmed all that so I apologize if I missed something.

Sounds like a smart scam, as I do believe there are time limitations on disputes as well as different rules for “merchant disputes” as this was something you authorized vs fraud. Basically asking the bank to eat it for something you gave out your info for
Posted by TheWalrus
Land of the Hogs
Member since Dec 2012
44304 posts
Posted on 9/26/24 at 6:51 pm to
How much money are we talking here? Seems like a losing battle.
Posted by Fat Bastard
2024 NFL pick'em champion
Member since Mar 2009
81959 posts
Posted on 9/26/24 at 7:12 pm to
how much $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$??
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17022 posts
Posted on 9/27/24 at 7:57 am to
quote:

How much money are we talking here? Seems like a losing battle.


I think it definitely is a losing battle. And not enough for the amount of bullshite I will have to encounter dealing with Capital One I'm finding out but I'm being a little stubborn here. A few hundred dollars.

It just irritates me to no end that a consumer can get totally fricked in this scenario with effectively no recourse. I don't want to just lay down in a situation where I know I'm being screwed. I have never had to do a charge back before so I was unfamiliar with the terms of how it works but amazingly it is hard to get Capital One to clearly elucidate the policy themselves, and the customer service rep on the phone herself stated something as concrete that did not match with what their website said.

She also told me that the terms and conditions were clearly outlined in a file I could only access in my app from my statements section from years ago when the account was opened. So with her on the phone, I pulled it up and no such document existed. She then pulled it up on her end and then put me on hold when she confirmed this. I was then instructed to go to the website and search for "disputes" online for their policy, which I had done already of course and found a brief and ambiguous description. So as with lots of these major companies foreign outsourced customer service lines, they just give you lip service but don't really know shite, and then they tell you there is no one else to talk to who can provide further assistance.

I dealt with this in the past over an issue with Chevrolet and their customer service run around absolutely kicked my arse and wore me down until I ate shite and accepted the pittance they threw me.

Just wondering at this point if there is an ACTUAL Visa policy on charge backs for scenarios like this where an item is ordered and never delivered and a merchant is non-responsive.
This post was edited on 9/27/24 at 7:59 am
Posted by kengel2
Team Gun
Member since Mar 2004
32869 posts
Posted on 9/27/24 at 8:03 am to
This was someone on reddit 2 months ago:

quote:

Former employee: the owners laid us all off last week with no notice and are now refusing to pay us our last paychecks because they're claiming they have no money left/are going to file for bankruptcy. We can't get any real answers, they shut down production immediately so if you have an open order they're not planning on completing it or refunding your money because they claim they have none left to even pay their employees the last 2 paychecks. You should contact your bank and try to get your money back from them.


One month ago:

quote:

I used to intern with them. They are a very small company that bit off way more than they could chew. Company was in shambles during my internship. They ended up closing up shop a few weeks ago.
This post was edited on 9/27/24 at 8:04 am
Posted by Miglez
Member since Jan 2018
526 posts
Posted on 9/27/24 at 8:06 am to
quote:

I also worked for Sportsman's Connection from Dec 2023 to April 2024. The employees were doing their best but the management was terrible and only cared about saving money at the expense of everything else. They were greedy and kept accepting orders and even started doing golf maps when we did not have the staff to do so. The last 2 months I worked there we were only working on urgent and hyper-urgent orders that were threatening legal action, BBB complaints, etc. Apparently they had been in business for a good while, at least since the early 2000s. The owner and his nephew just drove it into the ground by taking more orders than they could fulfill, not hiring enough staff and not paying staff a living wage, and mismanagement of funds. There was a time that they could not make payroll or claimed to not be able to while I worked there and everyone went unpaid for a month.

This month they let everyone go and shut down their website and etsy store. Apparently they've told everyone they are filing for bankruptcy, but I've heard rumors that they may try to open another similar business in the future.



This is a reddit comment from an employee that worked there. Pretty crazy stuff. Guess it essentially turned into a Ponzi scheme. They didn't want to stop new orders until they could catch up because they needed the money to fulfill older orders.
Posted by Sl0thstronautEsq
Antarctica
Member since Aug 2018
13018 posts
Posted on 9/27/24 at 9:54 am to
quote:

Is the time frame really only 90 days from initial order date or is it 120 days (or 90 days) from the expected delivery date?


What does your Credit Card Agreement say?

U.S. Consumer Credit Card Agreements
Posted by armsdealer
Member since Feb 2016
11933 posts
Posted on 9/27/24 at 10:01 am to
Call the fraud department. Capital one is usually really good about protecting the consumer, fraud department might get you someone in the states.

If you get a hold of someone with two brain cells to rub together, they will take care of it, good luck getting someone with that many braincells in one person though.
Posted by ChewyDante
Member since Jan 2007
17022 posts
Posted on 9/27/24 at 1:24 pm to
quote:

What does your Credit Card Agreement say?


From the link, it still does not specify:

Disputed Transactions
You must inspect each Statement you receive. Tell us
about any errors or questions you have, as described
in the “Billing Rights Summary” on your Statement
and other Truth-in-Lending Disclosures. If you do
not notify us of an error, we will assume that all
information on the Statement is correct.
2
If we credit your Account for all or part of a disputed
transaction, you give us all of your rights against
others regarding that transaction. You will also:
(1) give us any information about the disputed
transaction, if we ask;
(2) not pursue any claim or reimbursement of the
transaction amount from the merchant or any other
person; and
(3) help us get reimbursement from others.
Posted by baldona
Florida
Member since Feb 2016
22374 posts
Posted on 9/27/24 at 2:22 pm to
quote:

I have read online that you can request a chargeback up to 120 days from the expected delivery date but the Cap 1 customer service is telling me that is incorrect and that it is only 90 days from the order date.


90 days after initial payment doesn't seem right as many things do take longer than that. But its interesting and I'm going to potentially use that in the future for my own benefit.

FWIW as a guy in a somewhat seasonal business, there's nothing that pisses me off more than when people use that as an excuse. Staff up, work longer hours, etc. Get your shite done, its not an excuse.

Best part about a seasonal business is working hard but getting the off season, off.
Posted by Sl0thstronautEsq
Antarctica
Member since Aug 2018
13018 posts
Posted on 9/27/24 at 3:21 pm to
quote:

From the link, it still does not specify:


Got it. So, this is not legal advice, but based on what's stated on the Cap One website (which you mentioned in your original post):
quote:

To file a dispute digitally, you need to file the dispute within 90 days of the transaction date. If 90 days have passed, you can still file a dispute by calling the number on the back of your card.


Denying you solely due to 90 days having passed does not seem to be a legitimate reason. However, if you have already cited this language to them and stated that rejecting your claim solely due to 90 days having passed seems to conflict with what's posted on their help center, I suggest filing a complaint with the Better Business Bureau.

Based on Capital One's listing on the BBB, they seem to actively address complaints and find resolutions with the complainants: Capital One Financial Corporation
Posted by Big Jim Slade
Member since Oct 2016
5903 posts
Posted on 9/28/24 at 5:03 pm to
Report them to the police annd/or the state Atty General.
Posted by Drizzt
Cimmeria
Member since Aug 2013
14308 posts
Posted on 9/29/24 at 10:15 am to
Tell Capital One they can give you a charge back or cancel your account. That might escalate things but I would close the card anyway after the runaround you are getting from them.
Posted by Thundercles
Mars
Member since Sep 2010
6027 posts
Posted on 9/29/24 at 10:23 am to
quote:


Tell Capital One they can give you a charge back or cancel your account.

I'm sure Ranjesh manning the customer support line is going to lose sleep over this threat
Posted by Thundercles
Mars
Member since Sep 2010
6027 posts
Posted on 9/29/24 at 10:28 am to
quote:

Do I have a legitimate claim for a dispute at this point or am I SOL due to the elapsed time from the order? Is the time frame really only 90 days from initial order date or is it 120 days (or 90 days) from the expected delivery date?


You're probably out of luck. So much time has passed that it becomes the consumer's responsibility at some point. I suspect 90 days is a loose rule, 120 is flexible, but once you're 6 months+ it's a bit beyond the pale.
Posted by Drizzt
Cimmeria
Member since Aug 2013
14308 posts
Posted on 9/29/24 at 2:18 pm to
I don’t think Ranjesh can close your account. The US rep/manager you get transferred to will have a little more pull.
Posted by Fat Bastard
2024 NFL pick'em champion
Member since Mar 2009
81959 posts
Posted on 10/2/24 at 8:21 am to
quote:

A few hundred dollars.



peanuts

move on
Posted by TXTIGERTAIL
Member since Oct 2011
281 posts
Posted on 10/2/24 at 3:57 pm to
I had to dispute a charge through Capital One once. I had all receipt backup for the dispute. Capital One first tried to get me to “work it out” with the vendor, and I did. The vendor wouldn’t budge. I then pressed it with Capital One and their final response was something along the lines of “we aren’t willing to pursue the vendor for over billing, but because you are such a long-standing valuable customer we will refund you the money”

I was not pleased with how Capital One handled it, but they did make it right with me. I think it took two management levels above the Customer Service hotline operator.
Posted by Bjorn Cyborg
Member since Sep 2016
31902 posts
Posted on 10/2/24 at 4:14 pm to
quote:

Basically asking the bank to eat it for something you gave out your info for


The bank does not eat it in this situation. They charge back to the vendor through their credit card processor.
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