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Dumb Question - US Treasury Bonds in Fidelity

Posted on 2/1/23 at 11:58 am
Posted by TheJunction
Mississippi
Member since Oct 2014
1572 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 11:58 am
When purchasing US treasury bonds on Fidelity, what does the "0.37500%" number shown below mean? Depending on the treasury, this number could also be 0.25, or 2.75, or 1.625, etc.

UNITED STATES TREAS SER BH-2023 0.37500% 10/31/2023 NTS NOTE

I'd bought treasuries last month and that number was 0.00000%?

It shows a Yield of 4.8%ish. Does the 0.375% just mean that it'll accrue at 0.375% and then a maturity I'll get the full 4.8%?
This post was edited on 2/1/23 at 11:58 am
Posted by thelawnwranglers
Member since Sep 2007
40387 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 12:51 pm to
Assuming coupon rate

Some bonds pay interest via "coupon" I think generally semi annually

The 0% no coupon are just issued at discount and you get full face at end

I like the 0% bc easier to see YTM and it's in my retirement account

My retired dad likes decent coupon for spending money
This post was edited on 2/1/23 at 1:07 pm
Posted by TheJunction
Mississippi
Member since Oct 2014
1572 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 1:09 pm to
Still doesn’t make sense too me..
Posted by thelawnwranglers
Member since Sep 2007
40387 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 1:48 pm to
quote:

Still doesn’t make sense too me..


Do you understand bond premium / discounts?

I only ask because that might be part of my explanation
Posted by Pendulum
Member since Jan 2009
7569 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 2:03 pm to
The price of the bond adjusts based on the going yield. If investors stop buying bonds and the maturity you're holding goes up in yield, then the value of said bond goes down to find a buyer. If investors are piling in on bonds, then the price of the bond would go up and thus the yield would go down. It's a inverse constantly adjusting relationship.

The actual bonds all have different actual coupon payouts throughout their life, either semi annually, or annually, or no coupon at all, and the coupon is based on whatever it was when the bond was originally auctioned by the treasury.

The coupon doesn't matter all that much, it would be adjusted into the price your paying, it's really just a cash flow thing if you want to get some small amount of cash from the bond while you wait for either maturity or to sell if yields go down, thus making your bond worth more and you could take cap gains and get out. Otherwise you can always sit until maturity and get the original interest you bought it at.

That's why you can buy a bond that will come back to you at 100, and you're paying 96 or whatever, the bond was issued at a different yield and the secondary markets buy and sell the bonds over and over at different yield price adjustments based on the current market.

The only way to get a bond fresh off an auction is directly from the treasury via treasury direct for example. I find it easier to just buy secondary market bonds thru etrqde or what have you.

That's the very basic explanation
This post was edited on 2/1/23 at 2:08 pm
Posted by TheJunction
Mississippi
Member since Oct 2014
1572 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 3:17 pm to
I do not understand premium/discounts.

Pendulum, that’s makes more sense. I am buying directly (or what I thought was directly) through the US Treasury via Fidelity, but I assumed the Yield of say 4.5% was guaranteed if held through maturity, but it sounds like this isn’t the case?

One I thing I dont understand, I hypothetically purchased $10,000 worth for a 3 month bond but the actual cost was like $9850 (or so). Why is that?
This post was edited on 2/1/23 at 3:19 pm
Posted by bovine1
Walnut Ridge,AR via Tallulah,LA
Member since Dec 2004
1335 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 3:25 pm to
Because the face coupon is .375%. You get the yield to 4.8% by paying less than face for the bond. So the bond sells at a discount to face value to get the yield up to current market rates so the bond will trade.
Posted by Pendulum
Member since Jan 2009
7569 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 3:28 pm to
Whatever you buy it at, is what the approx yield is at maturity if you hold through maturity. That's why it's zero risk. You always have that option.

However in the meantime, if you did want to sell before maturity, you would have to worry about how yields moved which would effect the current value. So that is more relevant to 10 yr+ bonds where you might only hold for a few years. As you get closer and closer to maturity, the value will inevitably approach to face value of the bond. Longer duration bonds would adjust in value more than short duration, this is what is called "bond convexity" If you buy a 30yr at 3.5% and in 6 months, it's at 4%; then your bond will lose value; it's all built in to the market price, however you could still hold to maturity and get back face value. It's very predictable math, I dont know it inside and out to explain exactly how the current price is calculated, but that's why fixed income is a mathematicians playland.

That's also why someone might buy a bond with a ridiculously low yield that doesnt make sense to you as an individual, but because maybe they are betting yields will go down farther which has been the case throughout history , and they can skim cap gains by making HUGE trades.

2nd part
So you bought 10,000, for 9850. At maturity you will still get the 10,000 face value back so you would have gotten approx 1.5% interest from purchase to maturity (not apr) if you held.
This post was edited on 2/1/23 at 3:41 pm
Posted by thelawnwranglers
Member since Sep 2007
40387 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 3:43 pm to
quote:


I do not understand premium/discounts.


You are buying bonds on the open market. Bonds and the interest rate do not change after issuances. So depending on the market you can buy them for more (premium) or less (discount). Depending on the market at that time.

If Thelawnwranglers issued a bond (AAA by the way). 5% coupon and the market rate was 5% then you would pay face value for the bond.

Let's say the market rate was 6% well you aren't going to buy TLW bonds even though they are AAA because you can get 6% not my coupon rate of 5%. To induce you to buy bond or to sale on open market I have to lower price of bond from $1,000 face to $950. That discount or lower price makes the bond yield 6% and meets market.

Let's say you want to sell TLW bond and now market rate is 4% but remember pays interest if 5% now you can sell more than face because it will knock YTM down to market rate of 4%


Hopefully that makes sense and I am not full of shite
Posted by Jag_Warrior
Virginia
Member since May 2015
4292 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 3:49 pm to
This may help you. A poster who is well versed in Treasuries offered this link as a resource awhile back.

How To Buy Treasury Bills & Notes Without Fee at Online Brokers

There are Treasury bonds, notes and bills. Bills have the shortest maturity and bonds have the longest. The major differences between them are the maturities and how the interest is paid - as the gentlemen above have explained. You can buy new issues or already issued through your brokerage. If you want them held in your name, you can easily open an account and buy them directly from Treasury Direct.

I only buy new issues, usually through my brokerage, as there is no commission involved with new issues at my brokerage and it’s easier to liquidate them should I choose to sell prior to maturity.

Hope that helps.
Posted by Jag_Warrior
Virginia
Member since May 2015
4292 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 3:51 pm to
Good explanation.
Posted by Pendulum
Member since Jan 2009
7569 posts
Posted on 2/1/23 at 3:58 pm to
Yea, an example is the best way to explain it, and you nailed it.
Posted by TheJunction
Mississippi
Member since Oct 2014
1572 posts
Posted on 2/2/23 at 3:24 pm to
Thank y’all very much!
Posted by slackster
Houston
Member since Mar 2009
89215 posts
Posted on 2/3/23 at 12:21 pm to
quote:

It shows a Yield of 4.8%ish. Does the 0.375% just mean that it'll accrue at 0.375% and then a maturity I'll get the full 4.8%?


Your yield calculation is a combination of interest (coupon) payments that can possibly be as low as 0% and principle payment at maturity, which can possibly more or less than you paid for the bond.

If you’re paying less than face value, your yield will be higher than the stated coupon rate, like your 4.8% yield on a .375% coupon. I’d you’re paying more than face value, your yield will be less than the stated coupon rate.

For example, you can buy bonds with coupon payments of 7%+ all day, but you’re not going to earn 7% yield since you’ll be paying over face value for those bonds.
Posted by CAPEX
Member since Dec 2022
918 posts
Posted on 2/3/23 at 1:10 pm to
This thread is giving me CFA level 1 nightmares.

Next, you're going to start asking about duration, Macaulay duration and modified duration.

OP, do you know how to value bonds using a given yield and coupon payments?

It helps enormously to learn how to value bonds with understanding concepts.

A coupon is the percentage of face value, yield is effectively the return on your bond if you hold to maturity and the yield remains the same (coupon payments + face value).

I like to think of it as a discount factor when valuing cash flows.



This post was edited on 2/3/23 at 1:16 pm
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