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Star Trek Geek Discussion: Is Enforcing The Prime Directive Realistic?
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:24 pm
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:24 pm
I haven't started one of these threads in a while and over the Thanksgiving Holidays there were a lot of TV marathons.
Star Trek's General Order One, Also know as the Prime Directive has been part of the show since the beginning. The Original series had to work out the bugs, but by the end of the series they had the rule down to a point that was able to be past to the future movies and TV series.
For the sake of this OP, I don't count anything that came along after Enterprise because I don't personally consider JJ Trek part of anything but an attempted Retcon.
It's easily enforceable on cultures significantly less advanced technologically I suppose. But sometimes cultures could already have technology and can't handle it. One could argue that some of the technology that we have now is possibly ahead of our development to handle it.
Could you allow an entire world to be wiped out even if you had the ability to avoid it or at least save some of the population so the civilization isn't extinguished? A lot of Starfleet Captains and Admirals didn't think so either. Many went out of the way to invoke their personal values to do what they thought was the right thing (sometimes wrong) The the moment you meet a new people you've affected their society by just being there.
SO...Is the Prime Directive a realistic policy or should it be more of a guideline?
Star Trek's General Order One, Also know as the Prime Directive has been part of the show since the beginning. The Original series had to work out the bugs, but by the end of the series they had the rule down to a point that was able to be past to the future movies and TV series.
For the sake of this OP, I don't count anything that came along after Enterprise because I don't personally consider JJ Trek part of anything but an attempted Retcon.
It's easily enforceable on cultures significantly less advanced technologically I suppose. But sometimes cultures could already have technology and can't handle it. One could argue that some of the technology that we have now is possibly ahead of our development to handle it.
Could you allow an entire world to be wiped out even if you had the ability to avoid it or at least save some of the population so the civilization isn't extinguished? A lot of Starfleet Captains and Admirals didn't think so either. Many went out of the way to invoke their personal values to do what they thought was the right thing (sometimes wrong) The the moment you meet a new people you've affected their society by just being there.
SO...Is the Prime Directive a realistic policy or should it be more of a guideline?
12
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:29 pm to CU_Tigers4life
Well they are constantly bending it or breaking it. It happened all the time in TNG. So a species planet is in jeopardy because the star is blowing up and they don’t have the ability to stop it but the Enterprise can save them because they have a shitty warp capable ship?
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:31 pm to CU_Tigers4life
It's something to strive for.
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:32 pm to CU_Tigers4life
Since you left it open for interpretation, I’d say all these types of rules are really just guidelines.
The no interference policy really kicks in with Insurrection. Clearly, if Star Fleet decides it is in their best interest to minimize interference or the risk of it, they’ll do it.
The no interference policy really kicks in with Insurrection. Clearly, if Star Fleet decides it is in their best interest to minimize interference or the risk of it, they’ll do it.
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:33 pm to CU_Tigers4life
Not an example of the Prime Directive being violated, but the most egregious example of Starfleet's hypocrisy is the juxtaposition of the TNG episode "Journey's End" and the TNG movie "Insurrection."
In both cases, Starfleet has made the decision to forcibly relocate two groups of people. But in the case of "Journey's End," the people are Native America colonists. And Picard helps to enforce the relocation by episode's end.
In "Insurrection," the relocated people are a bunch of white, honkey, crackers, and Picard puts a stop to the relocation.
In both cases, Starfleet has made the decision to forcibly relocate two groups of people. But in the case of "Journey's End," the people are Native America colonists. And Picard helps to enforce the relocation by episode's end.
In "Insurrection," the relocated people are a bunch of white, honkey, crackers, and Picard puts a stop to the relocation.
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:37 pm to alajones
quote:
Since you left it open for interpretation, I’d say all these types of rules are really just guidelines.
The no interference policy really kicks in with Insurrection. Clearly, if Star Fleet decides it is in their best interest to minimize interference or the risk of it, they’ll do it.
I'm glad you brought up Insurrection. It really showed the hypocrisy of the Federation by choosing to relocate what they thought was a significantly less advanced species for the "greater good"...That really blew up in the Feds face. That could be an argument why the Prime Directive is needed so FUBAR like that doesn't occur.
This post was edited on 12/1/20 at 3:38 pm
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:41 pm to CU_Tigers4life
quote:
It's easily enforceable on cultures significantly less advanced technologically I suppose.
Not to change the subject but as I'm sure you know every single Star Trek series has at least a handful of almost identical episodes or tropes somewhere throughout their respective runs.
One of those tropes is the crew goes down to a much, much less civilized culture. Disguises themselves in prosthetics to blend in. But somehow, someway they always get caught and expose themselves and their technology to the culture.
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:50 pm to CU_Tigers4life
quote:
For the sake of this OP, I don't count anything that came along after Enterprise because I don't personally consider JJ Trek part of anything but an attempted Retcon.
I counter with the Orville episode on the Prime Directive.
Posted on 12/1/20 at 3:58 pm to UndercoverBryologist
quote:
In both cases, Starfleet has made the decision to forcibly relocate two groups of people. But in the case of "Journey's End," the people are Native America colonists. And Picard helps to enforce the relocation by episode's end.
In "Insurrection," the relocated people are a bunch of white, honkey, crackers, and Picard puts a stop to the relocation.
The natives were Federation citizens, and therefore subject to Federation treaty obligations. At the end of the episode the natives of course give up their Federation citizenship to become citizens of Cardassia. And then promptly joined the Maquis only to be destroyed by the Dominion.
This post was edited on 12/1/20 at 3:59 pm
Posted on 12/1/20 at 4:14 pm to CU_Tigers4life
(real) Kirk and (real) Spock would generally debate it in good faith, with an eye towards "the greater good", as opposed to the lip service given in TNG.
Picard would use it as a shield if he didn't want to intervene, then say, "frick it" if he did - occasionally the writers would use it as plot device for a superficially tough choice, but it is obvious the only character that gave a single shite about it in TNG was Data - and even then, he violated it if it suited him.
DS9 is tougher because it rarely came up and there was a war on for half the time.
Voyager was in purely exigent circumstances for the entire trip - like the Shackleford Expedition at the end of the real age of discovery combined with the Anabasis - and if the series was excellent in one thing, it didn't do a lot of navel gazing or agonizing over stuff like this (incompetent, recklessly driven captain notwithstanding).
ENT was pre Prime Directive, so I'm going to give them a pass on that.
Picard would use it as a shield if he didn't want to intervene, then say, "frick it" if he did - occasionally the writers would use it as plot device for a superficially tough choice, but it is obvious the only character that gave a single shite about it in TNG was Data - and even then, he violated it if it suited him.
DS9 is tougher because it rarely came up and there was a war on for half the time.
Voyager was in purely exigent circumstances for the entire trip - like the Shackleford Expedition at the end of the real age of discovery combined with the Anabasis - and if the series was excellent in one thing, it didn't do a lot of navel gazing or agonizing over stuff like this (incompetent, recklessly driven captain notwithstanding).
ENT was pre Prime Directive, so I'm going to give them a pass on that.
Posted on 12/1/20 at 4:19 pm to CU_Tigers4life
Strict adherence avoids the issues presented in some of the other posts.
Otherwise, it's a guideline that is beset by hypocrisy.
Otherwise, it's a guideline that is beset by hypocrisy.
Posted on 12/1/20 at 5:25 pm to CU_Tigers4life
Picard says in one episode that the PD was born out of terrible mistakes made in the past when they tried to meddle in other societies.
Posted on 12/1/20 at 5:52 pm to udtiger
quote:
Otherwise, it's a guideline that is beset by hypocrisy.
Very similar to the 10 commandments in that regard. It doesn't mean the ideal is worthless because of the failure of the followers.
Posted on 12/1/20 at 8:38 pm to elprez00
quote:
Well they are constantly bending it or breaking it. It happened all the time in TNG. So a species planet is in jeopardy because the star is blowing up and they don’t have the ability to stop it but the Enterprise can save them because they have a shitty warp capable ship?
I think part of the problem is that lots of time the writers went with extremes.
Saving a planet without giving away your existence? That's fine. Hell, as bad as the new movies could get, they at least got that CONCEPT correct.
The big problem was influencing a culture with ours; TOS came back around on this a couple of times to demonstrate how bad that could go.
I don't think it was "don't stabilize a moon's orbit without the population knowing you did it" but rather a "don't go down to the planet and tell them that their economic structure is destined for ruin."
Posted on 12/2/20 at 8:23 am to Philzilla2k
quote:
quote:
In both cases, Starfleet has made the decision to forcibly relocate two groups of people. But in the case of "Journey's End," the people are Native America colonists. And Picard helps to enforce the relocation by episode's end.
In "Insurrection," the relocated people are a bunch of white, honkey, crackers, and Picard puts a stop to the relocation.
The natives were Federation citizens, and therefore subject to Federation treaty obligations. At the end of the episode the natives of course give up their Federation citizenship to become citizens of Cardassia. And then promptly joined the Maquis only to be destroyed by the Dominion.
While the planet was in Federation territory were they Citizens? Did they even know the federation existed? The US has territories and in some cases the local natives are not US Citizens. The Son'a live in Federation Space apparently but operated as "partenrs" with the Federation on the Joint Venture of harvesting the engery from the planets rings.
It's a pretty gray area.
Posted on 12/2/20 at 8:46 am to CU_Tigers4life
You need to watch the episode
“Anthwara states that the colonists have decided to forgo their Federation citizenship, and Gul Evek affirms the Cardassians will allow them to remain on the planet as their citizens.”
They then join the Maquis, and are destroyed by the Dominion
The Briar Patch is in the Beta Quadrant, not Federation space. In Star Trek: Enterprise it is clearly stated to be in Klingon Space.
Next...
“Anthwara states that the colonists have decided to forgo their Federation citizenship, and Gul Evek affirms the Cardassians will allow them to remain on the planet as their citizens.”
They then join the Maquis, and are destroyed by the Dominion
The Briar Patch is in the Beta Quadrant, not Federation space. In Star Trek: Enterprise it is clearly stated to be in Klingon Space.
Next...
Posted on 12/2/20 at 8:50 am to CU_Tigers4life
I think it’s an excellent vehicle for philosophical thought. I wish they would have done more episodes that dealt seriously with the Prime Directive and the ethics involved.
I think it could help us as we reflect on our own past. For example:
Should the Enterprise intercede in a culture that utilized chattel slavery of one race over another?
What about a planet that was ruthlessly totalitarian, akin to North Korea, for example, and some of the oppressed people find out about the Enterprise and plead for help. Spice it up with crushing Marxist demoralization techniques of questioning truth itself and you’ve got quite the conundrum for the hard core Prime Directivists.
Or more simply, what about a culture that simply finds out about the Enterprise, with all of its western societal values of respect for individual rights, along with all of the technology that it brings, and some of the people desire to voluntarily adapt these new moral attitudes and social customs, while other “indigenous peoples” cling to older mores and social norms. Somehow, the Enterprise has the power to revert the whole society back to its primitive ways (thru time travel, for example). This too is discovered, and the modernists beg to not be “put back in darkness”.
I think it could help us as we reflect on our own past. For example:
Should the Enterprise intercede in a culture that utilized chattel slavery of one race over another?
What about a planet that was ruthlessly totalitarian, akin to North Korea, for example, and some of the oppressed people find out about the Enterprise and plead for help. Spice it up with crushing Marxist demoralization techniques of questioning truth itself and you’ve got quite the conundrum for the hard core Prime Directivists.
Or more simply, what about a culture that simply finds out about the Enterprise, with all of its western societal values of respect for individual rights, along with all of the technology that it brings, and some of the people desire to voluntarily adapt these new moral attitudes and social customs, while other “indigenous peoples” cling to older mores and social norms. Somehow, the Enterprise has the power to revert the whole society back to its primitive ways (thru time travel, for example). This too is discovered, and the modernists beg to not be “put back in darkness”.
Posted on 12/2/20 at 9:07 am to Philzilla2k
Not quite...
I don't debate the first part. It's the Insurrection part that has inconsistencies. Look at this discussion with Picard and Dougherty:
The Admiral and Picard makes it clear the Federation owns the planet.
Also, part of Federation Space is in the Beta Quadrant along with part of the Briar Patch:
I don't debate the first part. It's the Insurrection part that has inconsistencies. Look at this discussion with Picard and Dougherty:
quote:
Admiral Matthew Dougherty: You're looking well, Jean-Luc. Rested.
Jean-Luc Picard: I won't let you move them, admiral. I will take this to the Federation Council.
Admiral Matthew Dougherty: I'm acting on orders from the Federation Council.
Jean-Luc Picard: How can there be an order to abandon the Prime Directive?
Admiral Matthew Dougherty: The Prime Directive doesn't apply. These people are not indigenous to this planet. They were never meant to be immortal. We'll simply be restoring them to their natural evolution.
Jean-Luc Picard: Who the hell are we to determine the next course of evolution for these people?
Admiral Matthew Dougherty: Jean-Luc, there are 600 people down there. We'll be able to use the regenerative properties of this radiation to help billions. The Son'a have developed a procedure to collect the metaphasic particles from the planets rings.
Jean-Luc Picard: A planet in Federation space.
Admiral Matthew Dougherty: That's right. We have the planet. They have the technology. A technology we can't duplicate. You know what that makes us? Partners.
Jean-Luc Picard: Our partners are nothing more than petty thugs.
The Admiral and Picard makes it clear the Federation owns the planet.
Also, part of Federation Space is in the Beta Quadrant along with part of the Briar Patch:
This post was edited on 12/2/20 at 9:27 am
Posted on 12/2/20 at 10:07 am to CU_Tigers4life
All true, but now we are dealing with inconsistencies in the shows, and in some cases contradictions. Enterprise came out 3 years after Insurrection, so it was retconed to fit the story they were telling in Enterprise. I like all the TNG movies, but TV Picard isn’t movie Picard, and TV Star Fleet isn’t movie Star Fleet. Look at First Contact. Feds don’t want Picard anywhere near the Borg because of what happened in Best of Both Worlds. But not once in the TV show does anyone express concern about Picard and the Borg other than Picard’s personal well being. They aren’t concerned he will be influenced by the Borg.
And there are no consistent, officially approved maps of the Galaxy
BTW your map is a fan map, but that’s irrelevant because all of the maps I just posted are officially licensed maps, and none of them are the same.
TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and Enterprise are the only productions that tried to maintain a semblance of continuity, the films were just trying to be cinematic. But even the map you posted, Ba’ku isn’t in the Federation.
Jean Luc Picard would never abandon his ship and career for some poon, no matter what the metaphysic radiation was doing to his wang.
I love talking about Star Trek
And there are no consistent, officially approved maps of the Galaxy
BTW your map is a fan map, but that’s irrelevant because all of the maps I just posted are officially licensed maps, and none of them are the same.
TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and Enterprise are the only productions that tried to maintain a semblance of continuity, the films were just trying to be cinematic. But even the map you posted, Ba’ku isn’t in the Federation.
Jean Luc Picard would never abandon his ship and career for some poon, no matter what the metaphysic radiation was doing to his wang.
I love talking about Star Trek
Posted on 12/2/20 at 10:11 am to CU_Tigers4life
I wonder if there is a correlation between my ability to contribute to this thread and the fact that girls wouldn’t talk to me throughout elementary school...middle school...high school...college...graduate school...or work?
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