- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
The First World War began on this day 110 years ago...
Posted on 7/28/24 at 6:03 am
Posted on 7/28/24 at 6:03 am
July 28, 1914.
The Austro-Hungarian Empire declared war on the Kingdom of Serbia - a nation whose sovereignty the Russian Empire had vowed to protect. In response to Austrian aggression, the Russian army was ordered to mobilize. This mobilization prompted the German Empire - an ally of Austria - to begin mobilizing its armies for war. The French army, too, began to mobilize on its border with Germany as the French Republic was allied with Russia.
Knowing that war with Russia would likely mean war with Russia's ally France, Helmuth von Moltke - Chief of the German General Staff - put into action the Schlieffen Plan. This military strategy, aimed to knock France out of the war within six weeks, involved moving 750,000 German soldiers through neutral Belgium to bypass the strong French fortifications on the Franco-German border. The hope was to defeat France quickly so that the Germans could then turn their attention to Russia, whose large armies would (theoretically) take longer to mobilize. Just one problem: Belgium's neutrality had been guaranteed by the British Empire. And when the German army entered Belgian territory on August 4, the British government sent the Germans an ultimatum, demanding their withdrawal. It was ignored and Britain declared war on Germany.
And that is how events can quickly spiral out of control.
The Austro-Hungarian Empire declared war on the Kingdom of Serbia - a nation whose sovereignty the Russian Empire had vowed to protect. In response to Austrian aggression, the Russian army was ordered to mobilize. This mobilization prompted the German Empire - an ally of Austria - to begin mobilizing its armies for war. The French army, too, began to mobilize on its border with Germany as the French Republic was allied with Russia.
Knowing that war with Russia would likely mean war with Russia's ally France, Helmuth von Moltke - Chief of the German General Staff - put into action the Schlieffen Plan. This military strategy, aimed to knock France out of the war within six weeks, involved moving 750,000 German soldiers through neutral Belgium to bypass the strong French fortifications on the Franco-German border. The hope was to defeat France quickly so that the Germans could then turn their attention to Russia, whose large armies would (theoretically) take longer to mobilize. Just one problem: Belgium's neutrality had been guaranteed by the British Empire. And when the German army entered Belgian territory on August 4, the British government sent the Germans an ultimatum, demanding their withdrawal. It was ignored and Britain declared war on Germany.
And that is how events can quickly spiral out of control.
This post was edited on 7/28/24 at 6:04 am
17
Posted on 7/28/24 at 6:04 am to RollTide1987
And thus began the collapse of Western Civilization.
Posted on 7/28/24 at 6:40 am to RollTide1987
The Guns of August
Posted on 7/28/24 at 7:11 am to Stonehenge
The first few paragraphs of that book are some of the best writing you'll ever see.
Posted on 7/28/24 at 9:53 am to RollTide1987
I have a fascination with WWI. One of the more interesting periods of humanity IMO.
Posted on 7/28/24 at 12:12 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
I have a fascination with WWI. One of the more interesting periods of humanity IMO.
Definitely my favorite war to research about.
Posted on 7/29/24 at 7:57 pm to Porter Osborne Jr
LINK
The link is to a brief essay named Moltke Family Planning and the Marne Campaign. The author is named Zuber. Zuber's argument that in 1914 the Germans did not follow "The Schlieffen Plan" is well-supported.
Anybody who is seriously interested in what happened in 1914 should take a look at it.
The link is to a brief essay named Moltke Family Planning and the Marne Campaign. The author is named Zuber. Zuber's argument that in 1914 the Germans did not follow "The Schlieffen Plan" is well-supported.
Anybody who is seriously interested in what happened in 1914 should take a look at it.
This post was edited on 7/29/24 at 8:00 pm
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:02 pm to Champagne
Did anybody read this article besides me?
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:25 pm to RollTide1987
And this marked the beginning of the end, of an independent, mind our own business America. A country created on the hopes of being able to get away from the war, persecution, and death that the world brings about, was sucked right into that trap. And now, here we are.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:31 pm to Champagne
Was that essay written before or after the plan was re-discovered in the German archives in 2006?
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:50 pm to RollTide1987
I’ve often wondered how history would be different today if Germany had reversed the Schlieffen Plan; remained on the defensive in the west and instead thrown all its weight against Russia. In hindsight, it’s quite obvious the Russian Army in 1914 was in terrible shape. The Germans would have annihilated them.
Could they have inflicted enough of a defeat on the Russians to make them throw in the towel?
What would France do? Germany had a highly formidable defenses that would, and actually did, stop the French offensive across the border. Would the French have tried going through Belgium? Before the Germans invaded the Belgians had as many divisions facing west toward France as they did east against Germany. So, it’s obvious the Belgians would have fought to stop the French from using their country as an avenue to invade Germany. What then would the British, who entered the war to defend Belgian neutrality, do? Could we have seen the Belgians and British join the Central Powers of Germany and Austria-Hungary? And what about Italy? They were already a member of the Central Powers before the war. Would they honor their treaty obligations to Germany and go to war against France? And where does this leave the Ottomans? I’m sure they’d want to jump in against their old foe Russia.
I think had the Germans looked east instead of west, and there was a cabal of senior leaders who wanted to do just that, the war could have turned out far differently. And thus, the 20th century as we knew it would likewise have looked far differently. Some things I could see resulting from this scenario:
1. Russia & France would lose a short, sharp war.
2. I think Russia still falls into chaos, though it’s doubtful it would have morphed into the USSR.
3. Germany emerges as the major power continental in Europe.
4. Great Britain’s position as the world’s strongest empire is secured.
5. Austo-Hungary is given a short reprieve. But I still think it eventually dissolves. Despite what modern leftists want to tell us, multiculturalism is not sustainable long term. I could see Austria eventually being a part of Germany and the rest of the empire splintering.
6. The Ottoman Empire remains, though in what form long term is unclear.
7. France is reduced to a second-rate power. It’s possible she could slide into either a communist or quasi-fascist state. Or she could slide into anarchy.
8. The US still eventually grows into the world’s economic powerhouse l, though it probably takes longer to happen. The biggest difference is we don’t spend much of the 20th century dealing with Europe’s problems.
Could they have inflicted enough of a defeat on the Russians to make them throw in the towel?
What would France do? Germany had a highly formidable defenses that would, and actually did, stop the French offensive across the border. Would the French have tried going through Belgium? Before the Germans invaded the Belgians had as many divisions facing west toward France as they did east against Germany. So, it’s obvious the Belgians would have fought to stop the French from using their country as an avenue to invade Germany. What then would the British, who entered the war to defend Belgian neutrality, do? Could we have seen the Belgians and British join the Central Powers of Germany and Austria-Hungary? And what about Italy? They were already a member of the Central Powers before the war. Would they honor their treaty obligations to Germany and go to war against France? And where does this leave the Ottomans? I’m sure they’d want to jump in against their old foe Russia.
I think had the Germans looked east instead of west, and there was a cabal of senior leaders who wanted to do just that, the war could have turned out far differently. And thus, the 20th century as we knew it would likewise have looked far differently. Some things I could see resulting from this scenario:
1. Russia & France would lose a short, sharp war.
2. I think Russia still falls into chaos, though it’s doubtful it would have morphed into the USSR.
3. Germany emerges as the major power continental in Europe.
4. Great Britain’s position as the world’s strongest empire is secured.
5. Austo-Hungary is given a short reprieve. But I still think it eventually dissolves. Despite what modern leftists want to tell us, multiculturalism is not sustainable long term. I could see Austria eventually being a part of Germany and the rest of the empire splintering.
6. The Ottoman Empire remains, though in what form long term is unclear.
7. France is reduced to a second-rate power. It’s possible she could slide into either a communist or quasi-fascist state. Or she could slide into anarchy.
8. The US still eventually grows into the world’s economic powerhouse l, though it probably takes longer to happen. The biggest difference is we don’t spend much of the 20th century dealing with Europe’s problems.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 4:08 pm to Champagne
quote:
The author is named Zuber. Zuber's argument that in 1914 the Germans did not follow "The Schlieffen Plan" is well-supported.
There are always revisionists to try to explain "why". Moltke the Younger was always in the shadow of the great Prussian generals who came before him. It was no longer "The Schlieffen Plan" because Schlieffen died on the job, leaving von Moltke in charge. Schlieffen himself had been Chief of Staff 15 years, before him Waldersee and before him, the first ever Chief of the German General Staff, Moltke the Elder.
But, they couldn't call it the Moltke plan after it failed, right? Not to spare Younger's feelings, but to preserve Elder's reputation.
In hindsight, Bismarck and Moltke the Elder did Wilhelm II no favors by getting old and dying. He was left increasingly without senior officers who would check his baser impulses or even tell him "No", at least not until Hindenburg and Ludendorff took over in August 1916.
With all due respect to the Imperial German Army, the war was virtually unwinnable from the start. Invading Belgium and drawing Britain into the war on the side of the Entente doomed them to a fight that would be increasingly miserable as they struggled to import food and necessary raw materials.
There is an old saying in military science: Amateurs debate tactics; experts discuss logistics
True then, true now, true always. Unless your war is going to last a day, logistics is going to determine the ultimate outcome. I'm exaggerating, but only slightly so.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 4:20 pm to RollTide1987
It's gonna be a GREAT war. After this war, there will be no further need for war.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 4:23 pm to RollTide1987
Germany is 0-2 in World Wars 
Posted on 8/1/24 at 4:24 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
Was that essay written before or after the plan was re-discovered in the German archives in 2006?
Zuber is the scholar who found the document in the archives because nobody before him dug it up.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 4:26 pm to RollTide1987
Any man who fought in the trenches and went on to live a normal life should have been studied in a lab. People today have no idea just how horrible the conditions were, how loud artillery is when it is non-stop and landing nearby, how hopeless life on the front of a trench battle is.
I would have either died a hero or an idiot, because after a while I would have charged the battlefield like Wyatt Earp crossing the river in Tombstone just to get it over with.
I would have either died a hero or an idiot, because after a while I would have charged the battlefield like Wyatt Earp crossing the river in Tombstone just to get it over with.
Posted on 8/1/24 at 4:27 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
moving 750,000 German soldiers through neutral Belgium to bypass the strong French fortifications
Yeah, that might have worked that one time, Germany, but you can bet that France will never let that happen again!
Posted on 8/1/24 at 4:28 pm to Ace Midnight
Zuber is not a "revisionist". He is the first scholar to conduct comprehensive research into the topics he's chosen to write about. Much of the documentation was buried in archives that nobody before Zuber dug up. It was buried in Russian archives when the Soviet Army carried them back to Russia after WW2.
When Zuber performs original research on newly revealed documents, and Zuber reaches conclusions based on those new documents, this is not "Revisionism."
When Zuber performs original research on newly revealed documents, and Zuber reaches conclusions based on those new documents, this is not "Revisionism."
Posted on 8/1/24 at 4:29 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
But, they couldn't call it the Moltke plan after it failed, right?
Well, all I can say is - read the article when you get the chance.
I'm interested in discussing Zuber's essay, rather than going over once again all of the popular history conclusions that were formed in the early 1960s when the book "The Guns of August" was written.
If anybody would like to discuss Zuber's essay after reading it, I'll be posting again in this thread.
This post was edited on 8/1/24 at 4:42 pm
Page 1 of 4
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News