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Apple responds to Biden 's DOJ Anti Trust suit...

Posted on 8/1/24 at 2:52 pm
Posted by TigerGman
Center of the Universe
Member since Sep 2006
11595 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 2:52 pm
quote:

Apple claims that the DoJ is attempting to force it to spend money to develop tools for big business competitors, which could have a "chilling" effect on innovation. The DoJ suggested, for example, that Apple should have developed an iMessage app for Android.
iMessage is Apple's proprietary, innovative messaging service that Apple created to competitively differentiate iPhone. Under the Government's view, companies like Apple should face antitrust liability for not expending the resources, cost, and time to develop versions of proprietary products and services for competitors' devices.

Apple points out that the DoJ's complaint does not explain how Apple's alleged limiting of "super apps," cloud streaming apps, digital wallets, messaging apps, and competing smartwatches has harmed consumers or impacted consumer choice about which smartphone to purchase. For a successful antitrust lawsuit, the DoJ needs to prove that Apple's actions hurt consumers and stifle competition, and the DoJ argues that Apple has "locked" customers into its ecosystem.
It is implausible to claim, as the Government does, that Apple has deterred any customers from switching to Google or Samsung because of its policies with respect to "super apps," cloud gaming, smartwatches, or anything else. The opposite is much more plausible: Users unhappy with Apple's reasonable policies on third-party access can and do switch away to competitors' devices, where those limits do not exist.

Apple argues that it is not a monopolist because it faces competition from companies like Google and Samsung, preventing the government from establishing the "typical hallmarks of monopoly power." Apple does not have enough U.S. smartphone marketshare to make the monopoly claim easy for the government to establish. The DoJ has compared Apple to Microsoft, but Microsoft had a 95 percent share of the operating system market when it faced an antitrust lawsuit, while Apple's is closer to 65 percent.

Apple further suggests that the DoJ is aiming to have the court establish a "new theory of antitrust liability" that no prior court has recognized and that would provide "unprecedented authority to control Apple design choices." Apple says that the DoJ is targeting the very features that distinguish iPhones from competing devices, and if the DoJ ultimately wins the case, courts would need to "oversee product-design and policy choices," which they are not equipped to do.
. LINK
Posted by CAD703X
Liberty Island
Member since Jul 2008
81950 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:13 pm to
quote:

The DoJ suggested, for example, that Apple should have developed an iMessage app for Android.


really? thats their take on what is going on here?
Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
18845 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:22 pm to
apple doesn't innovate shite. Liars as usual from apple.
Posted by Dam Guide
Member since Sep 2005
15947 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:29 pm to
quote:

really? thats their take on what is going on here?


The whole iMessage complaint was made in court after RCS coming to iPhone was announced too.

DOJ is dumb.
This post was edited on 8/1/24 at 3:30 pm
Posted by DoubleDown
New Orleans, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2008
13063 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:31 pm to
quote:

apple doesn't innovate shite. Liars as usual from apple.

I think when it comes to iMessage, they innovated the shite outta it - so much so that Samsung has whined, pissed and moaned forever.

But hey, maybe Google can make a 37th messaging app - and then kill it in another year.
Posted by Korkstand
Member since Nov 2003
28923 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:40 pm to
quote:

I think when it comes to iMessage, they innovated the shite outta it
How so?

The most "innovative" thing that Apple did with iMessage was hijack users' sms messages.
Posted by CAD703X
Liberty Island
Member since Jul 2008
81950 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 3:53 pm to
quote:

The most "innovative" thing that Apple did with iMessage was hijack users' sms messages.
this
Posted by TigerinATL
Member since Feb 2005
62150 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 4:53 pm to
I don't know how central iMessage is to the DOJ's argument, but it's a pretty weak one.


LINK

That's not including iMessage and whatever the Android default messaging app is these days. Apple does not have a monopoly on messaging apps. It actually seems like a pretty healthy ecosystem. And I think Google is as much to blame for Apple's "monopoly" in this space as Apple. Google is unbelievably inept when it comes to creating products that don't get shelved and replaced 2 years later. They dropped the ball as much as Apple didn't share it.
This post was edited on 8/1/24 at 4:54 pm
Posted by DoubleDown
New Orleans, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2008
13063 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 5:08 pm to
That chart has to be globally, which I understand. In America though, I would imagine 50% plus has to be imessage.
Posted by Dam Guide
Member since Sep 2005
15947 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 5:43 pm to
quote:

That chart has to be globally, which I understand. In America though, I would imagine 50% plus has to be imessage


Year after year it is going down though. It’s a problem that is solving itself and won’t matter by the time this case sees its end.
This post was edited on 8/1/24 at 5:44 pm
Posted by notsince98
KC, MO
Member since Oct 2012
18845 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 5:53 pm to
quote:

I think when it comes to iMessage, they innovated the shite outta it - so much so that Samsung has whined, pissed and moaned forever.

But hey, maybe Google can make a 37th messaging app - and then kill it in another year.


There was nothing innovative about it. There were already messaging apps out there. They closed-source a chat app and replaced a text app with it. nothing new other than they didn't allow anyone else to communicate with it.
Posted by burke985
UGANDA
Member since Aug 2011
25850 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 7:08 pm to
iMessage is Apple's way of locking you in to their ecosystem and thats it. RCS is implemented in Android and allows for slightly bigger file sharing and is available across every platform. Apple knows they will lose a ton of customers once it is the same that's why it's taken 18 generations of software to finally play ball. This is also my reasoning as to why you see Apple trying to become more like Android and Android trying to become more like Apple they're trying to appeal to both sides. So if you choose to switch platforms it's not as big of a culture shock. And that's basically it you pick your poison and go with it who cares if it's a blue bubble or a green bubble that shite is retarded.

quote:

That chart has to be globally, which I understand. In America though, I would imagine 50% plus has to be imessage.


I would argue it's probably higher in America that use iMessage. Google messages is basically iMessage for Android wife has iOS 18 Beta installed and the RCS between our two devices has been working pretty good it really eliminates that wall between the two platforms.
This post was edited on 8/1/24 at 7:17 pm
Posted by TigerGman
Center of the Universe
Member since Sep 2006
11595 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 7:14 pm to
quote:

really? thats their take on what is going on here?


I'm going to read the actual motion itself, probably this weekend. Then, Ill post my thoughts on it.
Posted by Fat Batman
Gotham City, NJ
Member since Oct 2019
1496 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 9:02 pm to
quote:

Then, Ill post my thoughts on it.


No need, we already know your take will be heavily Apple slanted. Thanks tho.
Posted by wheelr
Tired of the BS
Member since Jul 2012
5558 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 9:40 pm to
quote:

“The #1 most difficult [reason] to leave the Apple universe app is iMessage ... iMessage amounts to serious lock-in,” was how one unnamed former Apple employee put it in an email in 2016, prompting Schiller to respond that, “moving iMessage to Android will hurt us more than help us, this email illustrates why.”


https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/9/22375128/apple-imessage-android-ecosystem-lock-in-epic-games-filings-app-store-dispute

https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/7/23342243/tim-cook-apple-rcs-imessage-android-iphone-compatibility
Posted by lostinbr
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Oct 2017
10814 posts
Posted on 8/1/24 at 10:42 pm to
quote:

There was nothing innovative about it. There were already messaging apps out there. They closed-source a chat app and replaced a text app with it. nothing new other than they didn't allow anyone else to communicate with it.

I mean that’s not entirely true. The key to iMessage’s success wasn’t that they created a chat app. It was that they linked the Apple ID to the device phone number and integrated it into the text messaging app.

This made it much easier for people to adopt, as you didn’t have to worry about getting any other usernames or anything from your friends. You just sent them a text message like normal. It’s something they were in a unique position to do as a device manufacturer (as opposed to 3rd party developers) and it’s certainly not earth-shattering, but it was still innovative at time.

The biggest deal with iMessage when it came out was that it bypassed SMS/MMS limits/fees. It cut the carriers out. Google fricked around for a decade trying to play nice with the carriers (who have shown they don’t actually have any interest in improving SMS/MMS) and let them control RCS, until they finally punted and took it out of the carriers’ hands just like Apple.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that SMS limits basically died in the US after iMessage went live, but are still very much a thing in other countries that are dominated by Android.

But at the end of the day.. it’s fricking text messaging. As you said there are other chat apps. It seems silly to me that it’s been made into such a big deal.
Posted by TigerGman
Center of the Universe
Member since Sep 2006
11595 posts
Posted on 8/2/24 at 7:31 am to
quote:

No need, we already know your take will be heavily Apple slanted. Thanks tho.


Just because you're biased doesn't mean you are wrong,
This post was edited on 8/2/24 at 10:48 am
Posted by msutiger
Houston
Member since Jul 2008
70073 posts
Posted on 8/2/24 at 7:31 am to
Apple is a monopoly but the argument the DOJ is using is dumb. They should center it around apples control of third party applications.

Apples app tracking transparency (ATT) was a propaganda marketing scheme that the public devoured because Apple made them the “victim”

In reality, all ATT did was ensure that only Apple had the analytics necessary to ensure ROI on advertising campaigns. Apple doesn’t give a shite about your privacy, they just want advertisers to have one pathway for advertising (Apple).

They do a brilliant job with PR to make the public feel like they are fighting for them. The only time they lost the PR battle was when they chose to not work out a deal quietly with Epic Games (Fortnite).

Apples products are amazing, I use them. They are great. But Apple crushes small businesses (most app owners and developers are small businesses). Apple has them by the throat and they can’t do anything about it.

Also, before you start yelling “free market” at me, there is a difference between capitalism and corporatism.
Posted by burke985
UGANDA
Member since Aug 2011
25850 posts
Posted on 8/2/24 at 7:45 am to
quote:

Apples products are amazing,


Meh amazing is a stretch, they are good reliable products if you keep them out of beta stages. Amazing includes innovation and Apple always overpromises and under delivers imo. Once you get out and see what else is out there with an open mind you quickly realize just how less amazing Apple is.
Posted by DoubleDown
New Orleans, Louisiana
Member since Oct 2008
13063 posts
Posted on 8/2/24 at 8:16 am to
Samsung and Android are probably more "innovative" but let's pump the friggin brakes a bit on the circle jerk of Apple hate. Apple built their walled garden with a pretty great strategy. As an example, the seamlessness of just popping airpods in and they auto connect to your watch, or phone, or ipad, or mac is something samsung has tried to imitate with its recent product lineup.

The effortless connectivity of an "Apple Home" is pretty amazing. I'd even say... innovative. Has it been exclusionary, maybe, but I think it's become a little niche just to hate apple. They're far from perfect and late to the party on a lot of things but when they come to the party - EVERYONE - else turns around and stares.

But hey, maybe Apple too will create a phone that explodes - right, Samsung?!
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