re: America's Brutal Culture Wars Caused by 'The Return of the Gods'

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Would you care to discuss anything of substance?

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I guess, maybe.

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Don’t you find it interesting, that a biblical creationist made accurate predictions that fly in the face of secular science?

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So I have to tell you something. I’d rather read the Bible, and read the books of biblical scholars and archaeologists, than read material on the telescopes and big bang stuff. I guess my problem is I just don’t care if the universe is a donut or a sphere or is expanding at different rates, or if there are multiple universes. However the universe came to be, I know it wasn’t the gods described in the Bible or any religious text on planet earth.

Secondly, bravo to those making predictions (let’s call them hypotheses) and the verifiable evidence showing that their hypotheses are apparently true. Sometimes a blind sow finds an acorn. Let’s celebrate the scientific method. Those same people need to also accept the reality of truth evidently shown about the rest of the universe by the scientific method, like the earth being billions of years old, biological evolution, etc.

A major difference is if the biblical apologist’s hypothesis is shown to be wrong - proven wrong - by the evidence, the apologist will just deny the evidence and cling to their presuppositions which are contrary to the evidence. The secular scientist who is proven wrong by the evidence will be like “damn, I was wrong, but at least now we know what is true even though it might inconvenient for me, and I have to accept reality that is evidently true.”

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I have no doubt that you would convince yourself that the moon was made of cheese- if you thought it would alleviate you from the judgement of a righteous and just God.

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Sorry man but I have to call you out on your projection again. I don’t convince myself. I let the real world evidence and facts of nature show me what’s real. Your argument is really dumb, I must add. I recommend you stop with the “atheists disbelieve to avoid judgement” argument. It is really really dumb, for real.

Watch this. It’s only like 4 minutes.

Atheists disbelieve because they want to sin

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Well if Cyrus of Persia was their last Messiah (Isaiah 45:1), in that spirit, Harry S Truman should be their messiah. He restored Jewish sovereignty in the land of Judah and Israel.

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Well, I just started the Church of Harry S.

You are welcome to come. We question everything too. But we are not know-it-alls who condescend and preach to others how they are wrong and we are the only intelligent and enlightened ones in the discussion.

Chill dude. I question a lot of stuff. You can't force them like the Islamists want to.

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I’d rather read the Bible, and read the books of biblical scholars and archaeologists, than read material on the telescopes and big bang stuff.

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Noted. Clearly, this is because… this subject makes it harder for you to ignore your insatiable desire to sin!

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Sometimes a blind sow finds an acorn

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Yeah. Or, maybe… well, never mind. Moving on.

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Let’s celebrate the scientific method

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Yes, let’s. Let us thank theists- like Galileo, Newton, and Boyle (to name a few); who are the fathers of modern science… who believed that an Intelligent Designer created an intelligible cosmos, and that we, being created in His image, could (and would) find evidence of Him in the things that He made (Romans 1:20)- and that science, itself, was a form of worship.

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The secular scientist who is proven wrong by the evidence will be like “damn, I was wrong, but at least now we know what is true even though it might inconvenient for me, and I have to accept reality that is evidently true.”

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You still haven’t watched Expelled, have you?

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I don’t convince myself.

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Meh. If Calvin is right- then you are correct in this regard. But, if Arminius or Molina are correct- then you are wrong. One can be wrong- and not know it. This is usually the case; and is exactly what we both believe of each other. Experience tells us that the person who can’t afford to be wrong- will stop at nothing to be right. It always leads back to Pascal’s wager- which you have consistently avoided. Surely you can understand the difficulty in ascribing the expectation of complete honesty to someone who proudly believes that morality is subjective.

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Watch this. It’s only like 4 minutes

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I did. Funny. But, it’s 3 minutes of pejorative equivocation fallacies- followed by 1 minute of grifting. Pop-atheism is so lame.

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this subject makes it harder for you to ignore your insatiable desire to sin

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If I could will myself to believe whatever I wanted to believe, I would will myself to be a Christian so that I could sin with impunity, knowing that all I had to do was believe Jesus was my savior and I’d be saved!

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Let us thank theists- like Galileo

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The guy who challenged the church at the risk of death? The guy who had to recant his scientific knowledge in public at the threat of execution? I think that’s a bit of a stretch to say he’s a theist. Maybe he truly was, or maybe he wasn’t. We’ll never really know. Those who weren’t still had to fake it. I’d say Galileo is a poor “example”.

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Newton, and Boyle

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I don’t know enough about them, but when they lived, modern science and archaeology still had not yet proven all the biblical tales to be false and to be mostly copies of earlier myths from Mesopotamia and Egypt and Canaan. Just about every modern scientist is atheist.

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You still haven’t watched Expelled, have you?

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No, send me a new link if you can. I’ll try to watch it this week or at least listen to it.

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Meh. If Calvin is right- then you are correct in this regard. But, if Arminius or Molina are correct-

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What if they are all wrong?

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It always leads back to Pascal’s wager- which you have consistently avoided.

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What if you are wrong? What if Catholicism is the correct religion, that they are the only ones saved, and that you must complete works just like the gospels teach? What if Islam is correct? What if ancient Egyptian paganism is correct? Pascal’s Wager is a fallacy on so many levels.

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Funny. But, it’s 3 minutes of pejorative equivocation fallacies- followed by 1 minute of grifting

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Did nothing for you eh? You didn’t see the similarities in those little skits with willing oneself to not believe in judgement to avoid judgement? I honestly thought it might allow you to see how one can’t simply will oneself to not believe in something to avoid consequences.

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I'm ready for some good Old Testament judgement.

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I doubt it

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If I could will myself to believe whatever I wanted to believe, I would will myself to be a Christian so that I could sin with impunity, knowing that all I had to do was believe Jesus was my savior and I’d be saved!

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Funny. But, your answer is telling a bit more than I think you intended. If you truly believed that being a a Christian meant that you could continue in your sins (whatever they may be- pride certainly comes to mind ) then I think that’s exactly what you would do. Who wouldn’t? No, I think you’re well aware (probably more so than many professing Christians) of the biblical commands to “take up your cross” and just what that actually entails. And, whether subconsciously, or consciously (with self-deception) you know yourself well enough to know that you’re just not ready for that commitment. But, that’s just like, my opinion, man. Albeit, an opinion based on self experience, and maybe I’m just projecting.

Romans 6:1–2 (NASB95): 1 ?What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Being a Christian doesn’t give us a “license to sin” without impunity. Yet, I can see how detractors of Christianity would come to this conclusion. But, I think Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, aptly addresses this concern- from and for the perspective of the believer:

Romans 7:15–20 (NASB95): For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

I can see how a modern atheist (and many modern Christians) would see this as a cop out and/or an excuse to sin. But, if you read Romans, in its entirety, you will realize that what he is describing is the grace of God that covers our failures- despite our best efforts. Efforts… not out of fear, but love and appreciation. Though, fear (reverence) is most often the proper starting point. Think about an acorn of fear (reverence) growing into an oak tree of love.

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The guy who challenged the church at the risk of death? The guy who had to recant his scientific knowledge in public at the threat of execution?

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I figured you would latch onto this- most atheists do. While you will get zero defense of Rome from me (in this particular topic). Do some research of the Christian defense on this topic, and you will see that this is an overblown, weak, atheist talking point. Though I must agree that we should expect better from “THE VICAR OF CHRIST.” I can literally picture Jesus shaking His head in disappointment when this happened.

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I think that’s a bit of a stretch to say he’s a theist. Maybe he truly was, or maybe he wasn’t. We’ll never really know. Those who weren’t still had to fake it.

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Granted- that is arguable. But, one day, I believe that we will know. I have no sufficient words to describe my disgust with Rome in those days. The Reformation appears to have sent them over the edge. However, in regards to Galileo, I do believe (by his own words) that he was indeed a theist.

The laws of nature are written by the hand of God in the language of mathematics.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use.

The Bible shows the way to go to heaven, not the way the heavens go.

God is known by nature in his works, and by doctrine in his revealed word.

These statements are indicative of a believer. Though, I agree with you that options were limited in those days.
He has some really good quotes. He was a very interesting person- to say the least.

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modern science and archaeology still had not yet proven all the biblical tales to be false

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send me a new link if you can

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Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

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What if they are all wrong?

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Are you familiar with any of these theological concepts?

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What if you are wrong? What if Catholicism is the correct religion, that they are the only ones saved?

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I guess I’ll be in purgatory for a hot minute. I have some cash set aside for indulgences- just in case.

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and that you must complete works just like the gospels teach?

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That’s not what the Bible teaches. Works are a result of salvation, and potential evidence of salvation- not in any way the cause of it. How many works did the thief on the cross perform? While James says that “faith without works is dead”- Paul agrees.
But he elaborates further:

Ephesians 2:8–10 (NASB95): 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Abraham was justified by faith, which led him to choose to do the good works that God had set before him.

Paul’s audience was likely people who thought they could earn salvation by their own merits. James’s concern was people who thought that mere mental assent was all that was necessary for salvation. They don’t contradict each other- they complement each other.

You really should do a deep dive into Romans. It might help you to understand just how much He loves you.

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What if Islam is correct?

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Islam is a demonstrably false and obviously man-made religion. Just google James White and Islam. But, for the sake of argument, let’s say it is correct. In that case- I’m going to Hell. Or whatever those goat-frickers call it.

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What if ancient Egyptian paganism is correct?

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Seriously? :lol: I suppose there would be any number of incoherent consequences, suffered by literally everyone since those ridiculous beliefs were extinguished (by Yahweh).

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Pascal’s Wager is a fallacy on so many levels.

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I agree- in regards to the demonstrably false equivocations that you have put forth. But, it is absolutely, logically, inescapable in relation to what the Bible proclaims. And you’re still ducking it.

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You didn’t see the similarities in those little skits with willing oneself to not believe in judgement to avoid judgement?

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I see the point that it’s trying to make. But, it fails because it misrepresents what Christians believe. We don’t escape judgement by our refusal to acknowledge the existence (and necessity) of God’s judgment. We escape judgment; by His grace, through our faith, in His work on the cross- as evidenced by a changed life.

I must say, as a seesawing Cal-Mol-inian, I find you to be a greater witness to the truth of Calvinism than Calvin, himself. :lol: