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Posted on 10/11/22 at 1:45 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:Tell it to "sources close to Zelenskyy"
We did not scuttle talks. That's a blatant falsehood.
quote:
According to sources close to Zelenskyy, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom Boris Johnson, who appeared in the capital almost without warning, brought two simple messages.
The first is that Putin is a war criminal, he should be pressured, not negotiated with.
And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they are not.
Johnson’s position was that the collective West, which back in February had suggested Zelenskyy should surrender and flee, now felt that Putin was not really as powerful as they had previously imagined, and that here was a chance to "press him."
Three days after Johnson left for Britain, Putin went public and said talks with Ukraine "had turned into a dead end".
Ukrainian Press
Posted on 10/11/22 at 1:49 pm to notiger1997
quote:
what is the hold up with Ukraine not making another big push?
In the East, Russia flooded its positions with reinforcements, and it's slowed Ukrainian progress. There are even reports of Russian counterattacks in some areas. There's still abundant evidence that Ukraine is positioning for an attack of Svatove in the next few days, and that will be the next big battle.
In the South, the reason for the big Ukrainian advance was a breakthrough across Russian lines that Ukraine was able to continue to exploit to take a big area. Ukraine rotated this troops away from the front and brought new ones in for the next assault. It remains to be seen if they can achieve another similar breakthrough, but I don't think that anyone believes the Russian line in northeastern Kherson is strong.
Posted on 10/11/22 at 1:53 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:The story came from multiple sources. In addition to Zelenskyy's circle, Boris Johnson made corroborating statements to journalists on his flight back to the UK. Lloyd Austin followed Johnson's visit immediately on Zelenskyy's return to Kyiv and reinforced Johnson's message. Do you know who Fiona Hill is? Austin is likely her source.
This kind of anti-American filth
Anti-American filth is swallowing your CNN pudding 3X/day.
Posted on 10/11/22 at 1:54 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The story came from multiple sources. In addition to Zelenskyy's circle, Boris Johnson made corroborating statements to journalists on his flight back to the UK. Lloyd Austin followed Johnson's visit immediately on Zelenskyy's return to Kyiv and reinforced Johnson's message. Do you know who Fiona Hill is? Austin is likely her source.
And you have yet to reckon with why the West would be not interested in those specific negotiations. It beggars belief you can't seem to understand that.
Posted on 10/11/22 at 1:59 pm to NC_Tigah
Boris Johnson telling Zelensky that we would continue to support Ukraine and that Russia was weaker than anyone thought? That does not equal scuttling talks.
Ukraine was still free to make any agreement it wished. Zelensky simply adjusted his calculations.
Oh, and Boris never represented the United States. If you put that "we" did something, that doesn't mean Boris Johnson.
Ukraine was still free to make any agreement it wished. Zelensky simply adjusted his calculations.
Oh, and Boris never represented the United States. If you put that "we" did something, that doesn't mean Boris Johnson.
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:00 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
And you have yet to reckon with why the West would be not interested in those specific negotiations
Negative.
The west said exactly why they weren't interested.
Watch out though.
An aspiring world tactician here just proclaimed an attitude like yours that "US is controlling Ukraine" or that the west could scuttle talks is """Anti-American"""
This post was edited on 10/11/22 at 2:01 pm
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:01 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:
Ukraine was still free to make any agreement it wished. Zelensky simply adjusted his calculations.
And Zelensky said himself before negotiations that he wanted security guarantees from the US, UK, Germany and France before he would abide by any agreement between Ukraine and Russia. Which means that any such agreement was always going to be conditional on parties not privy to negotiations, which again, should tell people what was going on there.
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:02 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
The west said exactly why they weren't interested.
Post it then.
quote:
An aspiring world tactician here just proclaimed an attitude like yours that "US is controlling Ukraine" or that the west could scuttle talks is """Anti-American"""
Stop being glib.
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:09 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:I'm sorry. I presumed you knew who Lloyd Austin is. My bad.
Oh, and Boris never represented the United States. If you put that "we" did something, that doesn't mean Boris Johnson.
quote:Well then you simply differ in your interpretation from understandings in Zelenskyy's circle, or of Fiona Hill's contacts, or that of journalists speaking with BJ in the aftermath.
Boris Johnson telling Zelensky that we would continue to support Ukraine and that Russia was weaker than anyone thought? That does not equal scuttling talks.
But wouldn't it just be easier to say, "Gosh, I'd never heard that. Interesting information. Thank you"????
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:10 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
attitude like yours that "US is controlling Ukraine" or that the west could scuttle talks is """Anti-American"""
Supporting the country that has over 5000 nuclear weapons aimed at us is anti-American, yes. Russia supports practically all our enemies, including Iran, North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba. Russia is our greatest geo-political foe (China is our greatest economic foe).
You and the other icon-kissers are objectively anti-American.
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:13 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:1) Putin is a war criminal. He should be pressured, not negotiated with.
Post it then.
2) Putin is not as powerful as the west had previously imagined. This is a chance to "press him."
3) Even if Ukraine is ready to agree to terms, the west is not.
Too glib?
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:20 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
1) Putin is a war criminal. He should be pressured, not negotiated with.
Who said this, and more importantly, why was this said? What happened on the battlefield the week prior is directly relevant here.
quote:
2) Putin is not as powerful as the west had previously imagined. This is a chance to "press him."
Again, related to the first point. Why would the West think so?
quote:
3) Even if Ukraine is ready to agree to terms, the west is not.
Again, the agreement, according to Zelensky's own words, from a link you posted (but apparently didn't read closely enough), was always going to be conditional on security guarantees. Zelensky knew that during negotiations, and got an amazing amount of concessions, which meant there was one correct course of action, which wasn't peace unfortunately. Do you understand why?
This post was edited on 10/11/22 at 2:21 pm
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:29 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:Since when is Pravda "Ukrainian Press"???
Ukrainian Press
Are you trying to be deceitful as hell with that label?
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:33 pm to NC_Tigah
They have already attempted to negotiate. This war would be over except for our scuttling of those talks.
Are we back to talking about this again
If there was a supposed deal the only source that's come out basically said Russia wouldn't negotiate without the West there and the West wouldn't negotiate with Russia and Ukraine couldn't be a middle man with those egos. That's not scuttling talks
Are we back to talking about this again
If there was a supposed deal the only source that's come out basically said Russia wouldn't negotiate without the West there and the West wouldn't negotiate with Russia and Ukraine couldn't be a middle man with those egos. That's not scuttling talks
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:33 pm to mmcgrath
Business Insider
quote:
Elon Musk personally rejected a Ukrainian request to extend his satellite internet service to Crimea, the SpaceX CEO fearing that an effort to retake the peninsula from Russian forces could lead to a nuclear war, according to a report published Tuesday.
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:38 pm to mmcgrath
My understanding is that Pravda (Pravda.ru) generally only refers to Russian Pravda which dates back to the Soviet Union. Ukrainian Pravda (Pravda.ua) is a completely different entity and is actually decent journalism and not pure propaganda
This post was edited on 10/11/22 at 2:39 pm
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:41 pm to GOP_Tiger
quote:You probably shouldn't project your actual support for a foreign country (even at the cost of drawing our own country closer to possible nuclear war) onto others. Your projection that I "support" Russia was/is obscenely stupid.
Supporting the country that has over 5000 nuclear weapons aimed at us
I support peace. PERIOD.
I want an end to what should have been an avoidable war. I do not want NATO fighting a proxy war "down to the last Ukrainian" because WE think WE can "press Putin". Ukrainians should not be our cannon fodder!
Got it?
That FACT does not align me with any particular player or support.
But here's the way this works for Ukraine:
• Ukraine could have declared itself militarily neutral.
• It didn't.
• The cost was Crimea.
• Ukraine could have avoided playing footsie with NATO and mistreating Russian-speakers.
• It didn't.
• The cost was a Russian invasion.
• Ukraine could have negotiated a peace with formal concession of Crimea and small areas of the Donbas.
• It didn't.
• The cost is more blood, treasure, and territory.
• Rinse and repeat.
At some point this takes on Charlie's sheen.
Posted on 10/11/22 at 2:43 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:Boris Johnson said it to Zelenskyy in early April.
Who said this, and more importantly, why was this said?
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