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Message
Budget comparisons between St George & other Louisiana cities
Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:45 am
Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:45 am
I have consistently said the proposed budget of the new city of St George is unrealistic and is being purposefully low-balled by the organizers in order to keep from losing support.
If residents were told the truth about the city's finances, they would be less likely to support the effort just because of the likely significant tax increases they would have to pay just for city services, excluding any additional taxes for the school system.
The figures below are from the various Louisiana cities' websites, including the website for St George. As you can see, I've included two existing cities in East Baton Rouge Parish as well as cities outside of EBR.
I've used the latest budget and population figures for each city that I can find on the internet.
The information is ONLY for the city governments, not the school systems.
For Bossier City I included only the general fund budget + capital expenditures on infrastructure and did not include that city's spending on water, sewer and its special "riverboat gaming district" expenses as those would not be applicable to a St George budget.
I've compared the budgets based on a per capita and a per square mile basis. The square miles used in the analysis are ONLY land area. I've excluded the area of each city which is made up of water.
Decide for yourself if the SG budget looks reasonable.
City-Baker
Population 13,890
Annual Budget $11,828,849
Budget/Capita $852
Area (Square Miles) 8.5
Budget/Sq Mile $1,391,629
City-Zachary
Population 15,099
Annual Budget $14,402,029
Budget/Capita $954
Area (Square Miles) 23.7 (Zachary is approximately 30% undeveloped rural land.)
Budget/Sq Mile $607,681
City-Bossier City
Population 64,655
Annual Budget $73,163,541
Budget/Capita $1,132
Area (Square Miles) 43.2
Budget/Sq Mile $1,694,777
City-Lake Charles
Population 71,993
Annual Budget $63,922,612
Budget/Capita $888
Area (Square Miles) 42.1
Budget/Sq Mile $1,518,352
City-Monroe
Population 49,156
Annual Budget $55,300,000
Budget/Capita $1,125
Area (Square Miles) 28.7
Budget/Sq Mile $1,926,829
Average for All Cities Above
Population 42,959
Annual Budget $43,723,406
Budget/Capita $990
Area (Square Miles) 29.2
Budget/Sq Mile $1,427,854
City-St George
Population 107,000
Annual Budget $60,297,728
Budget/Capita $564
Area (Square Miles) 85.0
Budget/Sq Mile $709,385
If residents were told the truth about the city's finances, they would be less likely to support the effort just because of the likely significant tax increases they would have to pay just for city services, excluding any additional taxes for the school system.
The figures below are from the various Louisiana cities' websites, including the website for St George. As you can see, I've included two existing cities in East Baton Rouge Parish as well as cities outside of EBR.
I've used the latest budget and population figures for each city that I can find on the internet.
The information is ONLY for the city governments, not the school systems.
For Bossier City I included only the general fund budget + capital expenditures on infrastructure and did not include that city's spending on water, sewer and its special "riverboat gaming district" expenses as those would not be applicable to a St George budget.
I've compared the budgets based on a per capita and a per square mile basis. The square miles used in the analysis are ONLY land area. I've excluded the area of each city which is made up of water.
Decide for yourself if the SG budget looks reasonable.
City-Baker
Population 13,890
Annual Budget $11,828,849
Budget/Capita $852
Area (Square Miles) 8.5
Budget/Sq Mile $1,391,629
City-Zachary
Population 15,099
Annual Budget $14,402,029
Budget/Capita $954
Area (Square Miles) 23.7 (Zachary is approximately 30% undeveloped rural land.)
Budget/Sq Mile $607,681
City-Bossier City
Population 64,655
Annual Budget $73,163,541
Budget/Capita $1,132
Area (Square Miles) 43.2
Budget/Sq Mile $1,694,777
City-Lake Charles
Population 71,993
Annual Budget $63,922,612
Budget/Capita $888
Area (Square Miles) 42.1
Budget/Sq Mile $1,518,352
City-Monroe
Population 49,156
Annual Budget $55,300,000
Budget/Capita $1,125
Area (Square Miles) 28.7
Budget/Sq Mile $1,926,829
Average for All Cities Above
Population 42,959
Annual Budget $43,723,406
Budget/Capita $990
Area (Square Miles) 29.2
Budget/Sq Mile $1,427,854
City-St George
Population 107,000
Annual Budget $60,297,728
Budget/Capita $564
Area (Square Miles) 85.0
Budget/Sq Mile $709,385
13
Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:50 am to LSURussian
quote:
Decide for yourself if the SG budget looks reasonable.
This is the kind of information I want. Like i've said before, i want more information from the SG organizers as to what they plan on doing to run the city. Departments needed/created. What we lose by incorporating, what we gain. Taxes we no longer pay to BR vs. taxes we pay towards SG.
But like i've said before, the antagonistic nature of those on the council that oppose SG is enough to entrench those in support of SG incorporation.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 10:53 am to LSURussian
quote:
they would be less likely to support the effort just because of the likely significant tax increases they would have to pay just for city services, excluding any additional taxes for the school system.
My guess is they wouldn't mind paying more, if they actually got something in return and saw a better use of their tax dollars.
Why is this so hard to understand.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:01 am to LSURussian
What benefits does the SG area and its citizens get in return for their tax dollars now going to the city/parish government? How much of the proposed budget would be made up by way of not sending the taxes to the city anymore?
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:14 am to LSURussian
Question: Are these cities providing all of the standard city "services" themselves (e.g., trash collection, law enforcement, sewerage, road maintenance, cleaning/clearing of public areas, etc.)?
Because my understanding is that STG:
will not have sewerage - already parish
will not have trash collection - already parish
will not have LEO - already parish
for which residents already pay the taxes for (either as parish property tax millages or as parish-wide fees).
PLUS, there are private entities that take care of the other "city services" on a contract basis for a fee, which could be where the additional "savings" are coming from.
Just a thought.
Because my understanding is that STG:
will not have sewerage - already parish
will not have trash collection - already parish
will not have LEO - already parish
for which residents already pay the taxes for (either as parish property tax millages or as parish-wide fees).
PLUS, there are private entities that take care of the other "city services" on a contract basis for a fee, which could be where the additional "savings" are coming from.
Just a thought.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:25 am to LSURussian
Interesting breakdown, thanks for putting it together. I would also be interested in how the economy of scale factors in.
I am not a big-time numbers/budget guy so I have some questions for you
. It is clear that your opinion is that the residents of St. George would end up needing a higher budget and their per capita budget adjusted upward. Say it went up to the average of $990 that you found above. In that case, shouldn't that cover a budget of up to $105,930,000.00? Do you think that would be sufficient to cover the services for the area? Does that essentially mean that taxes would increase by $426 per person over the proposed budget? How does that break down with annual property taxes? Do you have the current per capita for the unincorporated St. George residents as a comparison that you could add to the OP (maybe also the City of BR as well as a comparison since that may be a closer comparison given the scale).
In most of these topics, among other arguments you make, your biggest gripe seems to boil down to "Hey! If you guys go through with this, it will cost more than the initial estimates so you are basing your decision on erroneous info." That may be the case and I'd sure like to see a more detailed explanation/breakdown and a revision of numbers if needed.
However, from what I have heard from many in the proposed area, an increase in property taxes may be worth a school system that is free from the current school board and a government that is more responsive to the issues and needs of the area.
Anyway, thanks for the info.
I am not a big-time numbers/budget guy so I have some questions for you
. It is clear that your opinion is that the residents of St. George would end up needing a higher budget and their per capita budget adjusted upward. Say it went up to the average of $990 that you found above. In that case, shouldn't that cover a budget of up to $105,930,000.00? Do you think that would be sufficient to cover the services for the area? Does that essentially mean that taxes would increase by $426 per person over the proposed budget? How does that break down with annual property taxes? Do you have the current per capita for the unincorporated St. George residents as a comparison that you could add to the OP (maybe also the City of BR as well as a comparison since that may be a closer comparison given the scale). In most of these topics, among other arguments you make, your biggest gripe seems to boil down to "Hey! If you guys go through with this, it will cost more than the initial estimates so you are basing your decision on erroneous info." That may be the case and I'd sure like to see a more detailed explanation/breakdown and a revision of numbers if needed.
However, from what I have heard from many in the proposed area, an increase in property taxes may be worth a school system that is free from the current school board and a government that is more responsive to the issues and needs of the area.
Anyway, thanks for the info.
This post was edited on 1/8/14 at 11:29 am
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:44 am to LSURussian
quote:
I have consistently said the proposed budget of the new city of St George is unrealistic and is being purposefully low-balled by the organizers in order to keep from losing support.
If you truly believe they are lying about this, you should be doing something other than posting on TD about it.
For example, providing this information to them and telling them to their faces to stop lying.
Also, did you just say that EBR's budget is more than 10 times greater than that of Lake Charles?
Posted on 1/8/14 at 11:51 am to LSURussian
Before you compare expenditures for each city, it's fair to tell us what is in each budget.
For instance St. George's proposed budget doesn't include any money for fire protection because the area already has fire services provided by other entities.
Review the St. George budget LINK and it tells you what they include.
Now I am not going to tell you or anyone else whether it's realistic or whatever; but I think before you start comparing budgets of each city it is best to see what they include.
For instance I did a quick check and Lake Charles includes fire protection in their budget. Wouldn't that be a factor when you look at expenditures per capita? Sure it would be a factor.
Now, I do agree that St. George's numbers should be carefully checked and that they are very important, but looking at other cities and then saying that per capita St. George's numbers are bogus isn't sound financial analysis.
For instance St. George's proposed budget doesn't include any money for fire protection because the area already has fire services provided by other entities.
Review the St. George budget LINK and it tells you what they include.
Now I am not going to tell you or anyone else whether it's realistic or whatever; but I think before you start comparing budgets of each city it is best to see what they include.
For instance I did a quick check and Lake Charles includes fire protection in their budget. Wouldn't that be a factor when you look at expenditures per capita? Sure it would be a factor.
Now, I do agree that St. George's numbers should be carefully checked and that they are very important, but looking at other cities and then saying that per capita St. George's numbers are bogus isn't sound financial analysis.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 1:05 pm to LSURussian
Thank you for this.
It's more light than heat, which is often not the case.
It's more light than heat, which is often not the case.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 1:48 pm to LSURussian
I've always felt that Lake Charles was run fairly efficiently. The numbers seem to validate it.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 3:03 pm to LSURussian
This is some grade A+ work.
Good job Russian.
Good job Russian.
Posted on 1/8/14 at 8:19 pm to LSURussian
quote:
Budget comparisons between St George & other Louisiana cities
Damn, St. George is Poo'!
Posted on 1/8/14 at 8:55 pm to LSURussian
Take a step back and help my ignorance...what/where is St George? Not sure how I havn't heard of a city in LA with over 100K population
Posted on 1/8/14 at 9:03 pm to LSURussian
quote:
If residents were told the truth about the city's finances
I think everyone need to look at where the money is going now in the East Baton Rouge / City of Baton Rouge budget now. The local services agreement started in 1991 allows the city-parish government to move money between the two. The big issue I have with it is that money is only being moved from the parish revenues to cover city only expenses. In 2014 $52 million in revenue generated in the parish (outside city of Baton Rouge) was moved to city side of the budget to cover expenses. In 2013 it was $45 million. In addition, the following agencies are funded entirely by revenue generated by the parish: District Court, Clerk of Court, Family Court, Juvenile Court, District Attorney, Registrar of Voters, & Coroner. It is shown on p.331-333 in the 2014 City-Parish Budget at the following link LINK
This is why the Mayor is against the City of St. George - they will lose a revenue stream. The parish residents see only a small return on the sales tax revenue generated in the parish - the city takes a huge portion of it.
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