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re: You have to start Trey
Posted on 12/22/23 at 3:33 pm to supe12sta12z
Posted on 12/22/23 at 3:33 pm to supe12sta12z
quote:
You can't sit there with a straight face and say Zion is benefiting based on Willie's lineups.
Such a silly thing to say about a supposed superstar who’s playing with what most people would say is the best 3-12 roster in the league.
Zion is not the one that should benefit from certain lineups. The role players are the ones who should be benefiting from Zion. That’s how superstars fit into lineups.
The excuse making for this lazy arse is ridiculous
2
Posted on 12/22/23 at 3:54 pm to MrBarry
The role players are benefiting from his gravity. But when you playing a lot of minutes with Herb and Daniels, you're not going to have ideal spacing or guys who will reliably hit open shots. Zion isn't a 3 level scorer so he's going to rely on strong outside shooting form his teammates to ease off the crowded paint. We know this for a long time now.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 4:27 pm to MrBarry
quote:So you don't think ZIon and the team can't be better with certain lineups around Zion than others? You think the team is going to be exactly the same adn Zion will perform exactly the same regardless of who is on the court with him?
Such a silly thing to say about a supposed superstar who’s playing with what most people would say is the best 3-12 roster in the league.
Zion is not the one that should benefit from certain lineups. The role players are the ones who should be benefiting from Zion. That’s how superstars fit into lineups.
quote:Explanations are different from excuses.
The excuse making for this lazy arse is ridiculous
And also back to what I've been saying for days, just because we talk about one deficiency does not mean it's the only deficiency. It doesn't have to be 1 or the other, it can be multiple things.
Saying Willie doesn't maximize Zion when he puts Zion in the corner and doesn't play Trey with Zion doesn't mean people think it's all Willie's fault and Zion shares zero blame for his performances.
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 4:31 pm
Posted on 12/22/23 at 4:53 pm to ThePistol
quote:
Ingram leads the team in FGA and usage. Your assumption is wrong.
A lot of reasons for this which you are ignoring. If Zion was in shape and could play more than 5 consecutive minutes he would have more shots. BI was the one there every game when CJ and Trey were injured (and Zion sitting out games for rest). Of course he has more field goal attempts than anyone else on the team.
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 4:54 pm
Posted on 12/22/23 at 5:15 pm to whatiknowsofar
Been saying this sporadically for almost a year now. Herb is still very valuable and should get close to his minutes now but without a doubt Trey should be getting starts on teams that don’t have a PG/SG as their best player. Teams like Phoenix and Memphis(yes I know we choked this one but that was because Herb magically played the exact wrong way on Ja I don’t believe he will do that in the long run). Teams like Lakers and Nuggets we should start Trey.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 6:06 pm to shel311
quote:
So you don't think ZIon and the team can't be better with certain lineups around Zion than others?
Zion? No
The team? Yes.
You think Lebron goes out and scores 13/5/3 just b/c he’s got a shite lineup? When’s the last time Lebron scored under 15 points in 5 of 8 games?
It shouldn’t matter who Zion is playing with. He should be great regardless. And again, we have the best 3-12 roster in the league
If yall haven’t realized it yet, Trey is our backup 4. It’s why he hasn’t played much with Zion.
And if Zion wasn’t so horribly lazy on defense, then he wouldn't always have to have Herb or Dyson on the court with him at all times.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 6:18 pm to LSUgrad88
quote:BI averages more shots per 100 possessions than Zion, so that takes these explanations mostly out of the equation.
BI was the one there every game when CJ and Trey were injured (and Zion sitting out games for rest). Of course he has more field goal attempts than anyone else on the team.
Zion doesn't seem to be attacking as aggressively but he's also pretty clearly #2 in the pecking order, which is just a bad coaching blunder.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 6:23 pm to shel311
quote:
Zion doesn't seem to be attacking as aggressively but he's also pretty clearly #2 in the pecking order, which is just a bad coaching blunder.
Zion has one move, and if you play help side and get in front of him, then it’s really difficult for him to get a shot off.
BI can get a decent shot off on any possession he wants.
If a team wants to limit this lazy version of Zion, they can, and we’ve been seeing it a good bit lately.
Lebron is unstoppable when he gets a head of steam. Hell Ben Simmons was as well. And so is Zion, but you have to actually run fast to actually have a head of steam.
Zion walks everywhere he goes on the court. He’s not exploding through a pick or dribble handoff to get the ball and attack. Everything he does is slow starting, which gives the defense time to defend.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 7:17 pm to shel311
quote:
BI averages more shots per 100 possessions than Zion, so that takes these explanations mostly out of the equation
So again I’ll ask how many of these 100 possessions that you are talking about this year included lineups where Trey, CJ and Zion were not in the lineup. And with Zion not able to play a lot of minutes due to his conditioning, that’s a crapload of possessions BI is playing without 3 of our 4 best offensive players. He’s going to have to take a lot of shots. Then throw in Willie’s inexplicable penchant for sticking Zion in the corner and this more shots per 100 possessions stat means nothing to me.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 7:22 pm to MrBarry
quote:Not sure if you realize that this but you're saying there's no difference in Zion kicking out to CJ or Trey or Zion kicking it out to Dyson or Naji.
Zion? No
quote:We do, the difference is you seem to think it matter not one bit that Zion doesn't play together with Trey.
If yall haven’t realized it yet, Trey is our backup 4. It’s why he hasn’t played much with Zion.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 7:24 pm to MrBarry
quote:No one can stop him 1 on 1, one move or not.
Zion has one move, and if you play help side and get in front of him, then it’s really difficult for him to get a shot off
He also basically is never guarded by 1 guy, it's always 2 or 3 forming a wall. See my previous post about how it would help him to be kicking out to Trey instead of, say, Dyson.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 7:32 pm to LSUgrad88
So what kind of package for Lauri Markanenn to build around a team of Lauri, CJ, Herb, and Trey?
Posted on 12/22/23 at 7:38 pm to Colonel Flagg
quote:
So what kind of package for Lauri Markanenn to build around a team of Lauri, CJ, Herb, and Trey?
There's a Lauri thread on the first page where you can see lots of people's thoughts on this.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 7:43 pm to GOP_Tiger
I wanted it phrased differently and think it would be interesting if Trey was one of the known pairings with Lauri.
If you went to Utah and asked what do you want with the idea you kept at minimum
CJ, Herb, and Trey with him on the team. Trey would then obviously be a starter most likely.
If you went to Utah and asked what do you want with the idea you kept at minimum
CJ, Herb, and Trey with him on the team. Trey would then obviously be a starter most likely.
This post was edited on 12/22/23 at 7:44 pm
Posted on 12/22/23 at 9:25 pm to bonethug0180
quote:
How were the other years geared towards Zion when people have literally screamed the last 3 or so years that we NEED more shooting around Zion, and this year we have more shooting than we've had in many years.
If you want to argue the offensive sets, I'll give you that, but the team has literally been built to work with Zion now, while taking more and more away from BI each year.
The GM did, the head coach has not complied. He should be fired for not having Trey in 90% of Zion minutes alone.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 9:25 pm to shel311
quote:
Not sure if you realize that this but you're saying there's no difference in Zion kicking out to CJ or Trey or Zion kicking it out to Dyson or Naji.
That’s not what I said.
A superstar is going to get his points and assists and rebounds regardless of who he plays with, so it makes no difference who Zion plays with on if Zion performs well.
What does matter to the TEAM is who we surround Zion with.
And you seem to be under the impression I don’t want Zion and Trey playing together for some silly reason. At no point did I come close to saying that.
Zions defense is a real problem with how lineups are being played right now. Sure it would be awesome to have CJ/Hawkins/BI/Trey/Zion on the court offensively, but that lineup would never stop the other team from getting whatever shot they want.
Posted on 12/22/23 at 10:31 pm to 3PieceSpicy
quote:
3PieceSpicy
You have to start Trey
I think we should bring Zion off of the bench and he can kind of play the big man all offense no defense Enes Kanter type of 6th man role from a few years ago. Will save his legs and maybe he can defend a little bit against other bench players.
I agree
Posted on 12/22/23 at 11:02 pm to MrBarry
quote:
you're saying there's no difference in Zion kicking out to CJ or Trey or Zion kicking it out to Dyson or Naji.
quote:
That’s not what I said.
quote:You say it's not what you said then repeat the exact thing you claimed toy didn't sat
A superstar is going to get his points and assists and rebounds regardless of who he plays with
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:22 am to shel311
quote:
You say it's not what you said then repeat the exact thing you claimed toy didn't sat
No, he very clearly said your claim was a straw man, which it was.
And now y’all are in a straw man fight.
Posted on 12/23/23 at 1:52 am to southdowns84
quote:What?
No, he very clearly said your claim was a straw man, which it was.
And now y’all are in a straw man fight.
He's saying word for word Zion will get his assists regardless of who he is playing with and passing to.
That's saying it doesn't matter who he's passing to, it won't change his statistical output. That's flatly wrong. Passing to 44% 3pt shooters will absolutely change the statistical output of passing to lesser shooters. It's tough to fathom you or others disagreeing with that. If you don't, then you agree with me, so which is it?
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