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Difference between set / rep combos

Posted on 6/18/24 at 5:28 am
Posted by NolaLovingClemsonFan
Member since Jan 2020
1995 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 5:28 am
Was thinking about this the other day while doing a higher set lower rep combo where I was doing 5 sets of heavy 2 reps on squats and then later in the week on bench.

It got me wondering, how does your body and muscles know the difference between 5x2 and 2x5? No I’ve not hit the bong, more trying to figure out how the muscles know that you’re taking a break vs a longer set.

I’m in doing 5 sets of 2 reps, I can obviously do more weight than if I do 2 sets of 5 reps. If I were to look at the total number of reps, they’re the same so if you were to calculate total work purely from a force standpoint, the 5 sets of 2 would be superior since you can lift more weight.

Maybe it’s just too early and brain shot, but I keep wondering why we’re not all doing more low weight lifts.
Posted by guedeaux
Member since Jan 2008
13711 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 5:34 am to
I don't know the answer, but I just watched this video from RP hypertrophy about defining training "volume," and it is pretty interesting.

LINK

Posted by DrDenim
By the airport
Member since Sep 2022
910 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 6:27 am to
I second guedeaux, not saying he's the best or the only, but Dr. Mike has probably answered that question better than I can.

But, (am I'm not sure you realize what you've done here), your question is THE $64,000 question, and there's a whole lotta people with a whole lotta different answers for you, but it is a fascinating topic. My takeaway from the whole discussion is that "It Depends"....what are you goals and what are trying to do? There's no one right answer for everybody that will work every time.

I've always been one to answer those kinds of questions by myself through my training. I think of my training sessions like little research sessions, I collect data, track changes and progress, and try to make sense of it all. Of course, I also like to read actual studies where people smarter than me (hopefully) put intelligently designed studies together and put their theories to the test so they could share their results with all of us. But making yourself into your own lab rat has always been the main motivating force behind my weight lifting.

There is a physiological answer for you question, our muscles can tell the difference, but that's a Dr. Mike question, it's over my head. I can understand it if I read it or watch someone recite it in a video, but I don't keep that kind of knowledge in my brain. I only got movie trivia from IMDB in here.
Posted by LSUfan20005
Member since Sep 2012
9003 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 7:02 am to
I really think everyone responds a bit differently, and trying different programs (yet adhering to those programs) is super valuable.

I did 5 rep and lower programs for years and always sorta sucked at bench. Eventually tried a program that used more 8-12 rep sets and started getting stronger.

This is one reason I line PPSA, set/rep schemes seem pretty varied over 4wks.
Posted by lsu777
Lake Charles
Member since Jan 2004
34658 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 7:18 am to
it doesnt. the muscle knows load, overall volume and how close to failure you come along with the load comes progressive overload.

thats why pertaining to your question, the top lifter track overall tonnage because we just want to make sure that goes up over time in the same volume capacity.

since the research shows that only thing that matters for hypertrophy is really the last 5 reps that are closest to failure, should focus on less reps and higher weight overall.

the guy strength debates on X does a really good job of explaining and talking about lower rep sets. Mark Rippetoe does to on the importance of 5s.

i hate dr mike, even though he is smart as frick, so i tend to not recommend his stuff anymore. if you are looking at things from strictly a hypertrophy standpoint mike and paul carter are fine, but understand both are really fricking douche. Used to not be but have become so.
Posted by bamaguy17
Member since Jul 2022
1203 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 8:35 am to
Also to add, Dr. Mike says anything from 5-30 reps builds comparable amounts of muscle, so do what you like. Like 777 said, it's how close to failure you are. That doesn't meant RPE 10 is superior to RPE 7, just different stress. I'm looking at a RP program right now and it increase weight/sets weekly and you go from 7 RPE to 9 RPE, then a 6 RPE deload after 6 weeks.
Posted by NewOrleansBlend
Member since Mar 2008
1135 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 9:03 am to
Paul Carter almost certainly has a personality disorder so can be a tough follow but that also drives him to be obsessive with the research and extremely knowledgeable. If you can get through the anger issues you can learn a ton. I think a lot of influencers (JPG, TNF) have basically just taken his teaching and made it less caustic.

Dr Mike seems like a classic short man syndrome a-hole
Posted by DeafJam73
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
19122 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 10:07 am to
quote:

It got me wondering, how does your body and muscles know the difference between 5x2 and 2x5?


It doesn’t “know” the difference. It’s an issue of endurance and force production. The more reps in a set you have, the quicker your endurance and force production dissipates. The high sets of low reps is a great way to maintain a high level of force output while maintaining the endurance needed. You can push that as high as you want. When I’m training in a concurrent style of programming, I’ll have as many as 10 sets of doubles.

quote:

Maybe it’s just too early and brain shot, but I keep wondering why we’re not all doing more low weight lifts


It depends on your goal and what your training history is. It’s not a clear cut answer. Training should be phasic. You should play around with reps and set schemes over the duration of your training blocks.
Posted by DeafJam73
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
19122 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 10:11 am to
quote:

Dr Mike seems like a classic short man syndrome a-hole


I don’t think he’s supposed to be taken seriously. Half of what he says is tongue in cheek. A lot of it is him being a count, but it’s usually to people who deserve it.
Posted by DeafJam73
Baton Rouge
Member since Sep 2010
19122 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 10:13 am to
quote:

I did 5 rep and lower programs for years and always sorta sucked at bench. Eventually tried a program that used more 8-12 rep sets and started getting stronger.


This is why I always say training should be phasic. Intelligent changes promote new adaptations.
Posted by lsu777
Lake Charles
Member since Jan 2004
34658 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 10:48 am to
quote:

Paul Carter almost certainly has a personality disorder so can be a tough follow but that also drives him to be obsessive with the research and extremely knowledgeable. If you can get through the anger issues you can learn a ton. I think a lot of influencers (JPG, TNF) have basically just taken his teaching and made it less caustic.

Dr Mike seems like a classic short man syndrome a-hole


agreed. i knew paul back before his divorce back like 20 years ago on teh DC forums that skip hill owns called intense muscle. him, dante, dr scott stevenson, john meadows etc all there. Learned a ton from them and Paul was cool AF back then.

has become complete douche now. smart AF but anger issues big time

never liked Dr mike because he has a hard time understanding why anyone would train for anything but put hypertrophy and everything is looked at through that lens. He hoenstly doesnt understand why someone would not want to look like him

now personally he is fine when talking outside of lifting. Little diffferent/weird but seems like ok guy

paul is actually a really good guy, like give you his shirt off his back, in church every weekend, great dad kind of guy. but he has anger issues and infidelity issues, issues with relationships and overall taking respsobibility for anything he does wrong. 100% lacks self awareness.
Posted by lsu777
Lake Charles
Member since Jan 2004
34658 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 10:51 am to
quote:

This is why I always say training should be phasic. Intelligent changes promote new adaptations.


yea all depends on what we are talking too. if its strength...attack the weakness. if its athletic training...where does athlete fall on force velocity profile....attack the weakness to drive main KPI. if its hypertrophy, it progressive overload on lifts that provide the most stability and put you in a particularly good position to hit the target muscle with progressive tonnage being the main overall driver of hypertrophy.
Posted by SquatchDawg
Cohutta Wilderness
Member since Sep 2012
16769 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 12:34 pm to
Piggybacking off of this, is there any data on which is better on the joints of an older lifter? Less volume with more weight or more volume with a lighter weight? I can see where both would have its disadvantages.
Posted by lsucoonass
shreveport and east texas
Member since Nov 2003
68982 posts
Posted on 6/18/24 at 8:12 pm to
I suppose it depends on how it’s programmed, is it 5 sets of 2 at 90% of a 1RM

Are you using this set and reps to build power?
Posted by guedeaux
Member since Jan 2008
13711 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 9:29 am to
quote:

Piggybacking off of this, is there any data on which is better on the joints of an older lifter? Less volume with more weight or more volume with a lighter weight? I can see where both would have its disadvantages.


It comes down to proper warm up and using the appropriate loads for yourself. As we age, avoiding injury should be an equivalent (if not higher) priority to gaining/maintaining muscle mass, and only you can really tell if you are doing more harm than good.

In my 40s, 12-20 reps to or near failure per set typically gives me a good feeling of stretch, tension, and pump plus time to heal between workouts. These days, failing at 5-10 reps leaves me either sore for several days or failing to get an adequate pump during the sets.
Posted by FormerPokeCenter
Member since Aug 2010
94 posts
Posted on 6/19/24 at 11:38 am to
I agree with you on the fact that age plays a significant role here, but I think that reps don't really matter if you do them to failure or not, as long as you feel good doing them. As long as you have enough rest between sets, then it's good. I personally can even do 5-minute rests between sets.
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