- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
VBT/Conjugate Training for athletes(free program)
Posted on 9/13/24 at 9:10 am
Posted on 9/13/24 at 9:10 am
so have had a lot of people ask me how to program for a HS athlete....well after they run an initial LP, I always say it should be some form of conjugate. I wanted to use this thread as a discussion thread and also give some programming
Well Michael Fahey(@burntheladders) the creator of westside vs the world and one of the creators of OVRperformance released a free program. Fahey is one of the guys i rely on to bounce ideas off of and actually talked at length to him yesterday. One of the best people in the industry and always down to talk. I use his OVR jump and will be switching to their velocity meter soon. Their jump product is amazing, by far the best piece of equipment in that category out there. He works with FSU alot and coaches Florida high which is very similar to Uhigh here and is on FSU's campus. Fahey is a really smart guy, has made two very very popular documentaries and has OVR which allows him to be a volunteer strength coach, so he doesnt have to listen to all the BS as he doesnt need the check.
this is very similar to what I follow with my athletes when we are able to go 4 days a week. Differences I use are as follows
- we start each day with a warm up that includes variety of crawls, broomstick dislocates, band pull aparts and band overhead Y to T
- we start each day with med ball throws after warm up. i train almost exclusively baseball players. We rotate focus on these. Lower body days its overhead and separation throws similar to how a pitcher would. this is done similarly to how top velocity does these. All my kids are 2 way so need both. On upper days we superset front arm iso pull on the crane scale with front arm throws. All of these are on the radar trying to set PR every single time. 10-15 total throws, full recovery between throws.
- we then go to sprints. on lower body day its 10 yard dash. you get 5 runs and trying to set a PR. on Upper body day its Flying 10, so 10 yard dash wih roughly a 10 yard head start. Right now i use stop watch here but have ordered cheap set of laser gates to hopefully be more accurate but OVR will be coming out with a laser gate timing system and i will get that when it comes out.
- we then got to the DB jumps on the OVR. we do not do regular verticals with no weight like the FAHEY program calls for after this. Because
-12" box working to a 3 rep max, usually similar to@explosive mechanics for boxy squat on lower max effort. 3x5 working to top set of 5 trying to set a PR.
16" box squat on dynamic effort day. I dont have the thick pad many use, i have a thinner pad about 2" thick. 5 sets of 3
- i dont do board press, we do pin press. 2 pin press on max effort day and 4 pin press on dynamic day. we work up to top set on 2 pin day, 5 x 3 on dynamic day. We test bench every 6 weeks when doing 4 day a week programming.
- i do GHD over nordics
- We do rows on upper days, dont do DB C&P at all and usually dont do incline either. We use KB's for carry instead of trap bar
every thing else is pretty damn close and many of the concepts are the same.
for progression, i use this that i got from Fahey, works amazing for young athletes so they learn to move fast
You can find the OVR program here
pdf+sheets
LINK
pdf
LINK
Well Michael Fahey(@burntheladders) the creator of westside vs the world and one of the creators of OVRperformance released a free program. Fahey is one of the guys i rely on to bounce ideas off of and actually talked at length to him yesterday. One of the best people in the industry and always down to talk. I use his OVR jump and will be switching to their velocity meter soon. Their jump product is amazing, by far the best piece of equipment in that category out there. He works with FSU alot and coaches Florida high which is very similar to Uhigh here and is on FSU's campus. Fahey is a really smart guy, has made two very very popular documentaries and has OVR which allows him to be a volunteer strength coach, so he doesnt have to listen to all the BS as he doesnt need the check.
this is very similar to what I follow with my athletes when we are able to go 4 days a week. Differences I use are as follows
- we start each day with a warm up that includes variety of crawls, broomstick dislocates, band pull aparts and band overhead Y to T
- we start each day with med ball throws after warm up. i train almost exclusively baseball players. We rotate focus on these. Lower body days its overhead and separation throws similar to how a pitcher would. this is done similarly to how top velocity does these. All my kids are 2 way so need both. On upper days we superset front arm iso pull on the crane scale with front arm throws. All of these are on the radar trying to set PR every single time. 10-15 total throws, full recovery between throws.
- we then go to sprints. on lower body day its 10 yard dash. you get 5 runs and trying to set a PR. on Upper body day its Flying 10, so 10 yard dash wih roughly a 10 yard head start. Right now i use stop watch here but have ordered cheap set of laser gates to hopefully be more accurate but OVR will be coming out with a laser gate timing system and i will get that when it comes out.
- we then got to the DB jumps on the OVR. we do not do regular verticals with no weight like the FAHEY program calls for after this. Because
-12" box working to a 3 rep max, usually similar to@explosive mechanics for boxy squat on lower max effort. 3x5 working to top set of 5 trying to set a PR.
16" box squat on dynamic effort day. I dont have the thick pad many use, i have a thinner pad about 2" thick. 5 sets of 3
- i dont do board press, we do pin press. 2 pin press on max effort day and 4 pin press on dynamic day. we work up to top set on 2 pin day, 5 x 3 on dynamic day. We test bench every 6 weeks when doing 4 day a week programming.
- i do GHD over nordics
- We do rows on upper days, dont do DB C&P at all and usually dont do incline either. We use KB's for carry instead of trap bar
every thing else is pretty damn close and many of the concepts are the same.
for progression, i use this that i got from Fahey, works amazing for young athletes so they learn to move fast
You can find the OVR program here
pdf+sheets
LINK
LINK
3
Posted on 9/13/24 at 9:10 am to lsu777
for 3 day lifting i do combo lifts
Day 1 is max effort (brief max tension method on 12" box) working to top set of 5, either 3 or 5 sets and 2 pin press working to a top set of 5. reverse lunges are lighter for a little more reps this day and the carry is lighter for longer distance. 10 yard dash and DB vertical jump
day 2- max effort trap bar deads and bench. focusing on speed on the bench or you can do DB bench or DB floor press if you want to focus on hypertrophy or focus on press. Flying 10s and broad jumps. usually a sand bag carry
day 3- dynamic...squats on 16" box for speed, 4 pin bench for speed. 10yd dash and db VJ. reverse lunges and carry are heavy this day.
here is a template that i created, not as nice as the OVR one but it works for now.
LINK
hopefully this gives yall some ideas. i really like the idea of ending lower body days with Reverse hypers and belted marches so that you decompress the spine
i like idea of weighted hangs at the end of upper body days
if you are training a whole team at a school, i would focus on the OG 4 day template adding sprints and throws at least for much of the off season
if you want to only lift 3 days a week as a team, then use the other 2 days as a sprint day. you get your running technique work in, lots of hops/broad jumps, prowler acceleration work and full sprint work. keep DB VJ on the 3 lifting days
or you can do 5 day template like this
day 1- lower ME
day 2- upper ME
day 3-lower ME with sumo deads
day 4- upper DE
day 5- lower DE
could also do like jared does at explosive mechanics where he box squats 3x per week. so day 3 is lower max effort as he uses breif max tension all 3 days or you could make day 3 a dynamic squat day and then day 5 is max effort again.
some people to follow on this
Michael Fahey @burntheladders on all social
Zac goodman @ZacGoodman_ on twitter and insta (podcast: defying gravity on spotify)
Jared Bidne @explosivemechanics (podcast: explosive strength)
Brandon Byrd- byrd sports performance @ByrdSportsPF (same name for podcast)
Cody Hughes @clh_strength
Bill Miller
official strength debates on x
tony hollier
pwr lab @PWRLabTX
gerry defillipo
plenty of others but that is a great start.
Day 1 is max effort (brief max tension method on 12" box) working to top set of 5, either 3 or 5 sets and 2 pin press working to a top set of 5. reverse lunges are lighter for a little more reps this day and the carry is lighter for longer distance. 10 yard dash and DB vertical jump
day 2- max effort trap bar deads and bench. focusing on speed on the bench or you can do DB bench or DB floor press if you want to focus on hypertrophy or focus on press. Flying 10s and broad jumps. usually a sand bag carry
day 3- dynamic...squats on 16" box for speed, 4 pin bench for speed. 10yd dash and db VJ. reverse lunges and carry are heavy this day.
here is a template that i created, not as nice as the OVR one but it works for now.
LINK
hopefully this gives yall some ideas. i really like the idea of ending lower body days with Reverse hypers and belted marches so that you decompress the spine
i like idea of weighted hangs at the end of upper body days
if you are training a whole team at a school, i would focus on the OG 4 day template adding sprints and throws at least for much of the off season
if you want to only lift 3 days a week as a team, then use the other 2 days as a sprint day. you get your running technique work in, lots of hops/broad jumps, prowler acceleration work and full sprint work. keep DB VJ on the 3 lifting days
or you can do 5 day template like this
day 1- lower ME
day 2- upper ME
day 3-lower ME with sumo deads
day 4- upper DE
day 5- lower DE
could also do like jared does at explosive mechanics where he box squats 3x per week. so day 3 is lower max effort as he uses breif max tension all 3 days or you could make day 3 a dynamic squat day and then day 5 is max effort again.
some people to follow on this
Michael Fahey @burntheladders on all social
Zac goodman @ZacGoodman_ on twitter and insta (podcast: defying gravity on spotify)
Jared Bidne @explosivemechanics (podcast: explosive strength)
Brandon Byrd- byrd sports performance @ByrdSportsPF (same name for podcast)
Cody Hughes @clh_strength
Bill Miller
official strength debates on x
tony hollier
pwr lab @PWRLabTX
gerry defillipo
plenty of others but that is a great start.
This post was edited on 9/13/24 at 10:43 am
Posted on 9/13/24 at 11:04 am to lsu777
This is good stuff. I used to run my conjugate system a little bit differently for my high school athletes. Because they were still growing and developing I added an Repetitive Effort day into the mix. I think Hypertrophy is pretty important for the developing athlete.
My days alternated between Dynamic, Repetitive, and Max Effort days, alternating between Upper and Lower body work. I kept Wednesdays for Metabolic Conditioning and Saturdays for Active Recovery.
Looked something like:
Week 1
Monday -Dynamic Upper
Tuesday -Repetitive Lower
Wed. -Met Con
Thurs. -Max Upper
Fri. -Dynamic Lower
Sat. -Recovery
Week2
Monday -Repetitive Upper
Tuesday -Max Lower
Wed. -Met Con
Thurs. -Dynamic Upper
Fri. -Repetitive Lower
Sat. -Recovery
Always rotating between those three days (D, R, M, D, R, M, D, etc...)
My days alternated between Dynamic, Repetitive, and Max Effort days, alternating between Upper and Lower body work. I kept Wednesdays for Metabolic Conditioning and Saturdays for Active Recovery.
Looked something like:
Week 1
Monday -Dynamic Upper
Tuesday -Repetitive Lower
Wed. -Met Con
Thurs. -Max Upper
Fri. -Dynamic Lower
Sat. -Recovery
Week2
Monday -Repetitive Upper
Tuesday -Max Lower
Wed. -Met Con
Thurs. -Dynamic Upper
Fri. -Repetitive Lower
Sat. -Recovery
Always rotating between those three days (D, R, M, D, R, M, D, etc...)
Posted on 9/13/24 at 11:28 am to PrezCock
100%
Most on here know im a defranco guy. he ran a ME lower, ME upper, rep day for the same reasons.
here are the westside for skinny bastard templates that use conjugate for athletes too
ws4sb part 1
ws4sb part 2
ws4sb part 3
i do like the way you have it set up. I mainly train MS athletes so cant add a ton of muscle anyways but even then I find if you hit accessories with the rep method, you can build plenty of muscle. For most HS athletes too i really like just using breif max tension with static dynamic method.
but that is the beauty of conjugate....if you notice a weakness with majority of atheltes, you simply pivot between ME, DE or Repetition method to address as needed. Notice a particular weakness for specific kid or a couple kids...simply add 1 or 2 special exercises to address it.
Prez....thank you for taking the time to write that. love that kind of interaction
another program from defranco is the Strong bastard 911 program that covers using conjugate for athletes.
another great resource is nate harvey - here is his basic conjugate 4 athletes
LINK
FTR...i think Fahey lay out plus sprints is the best for 80% of athletes and prolly 95%_of Football & basketball players
Most on here know im a defranco guy. he ran a ME lower, ME upper, rep day for the same reasons.
here are the westside for skinny bastard templates that use conjugate for athletes too
ws4sb part 1
ws4sb part 2
ws4sb part 3
i do like the way you have it set up. I mainly train MS athletes so cant add a ton of muscle anyways but even then I find if you hit accessories with the rep method, you can build plenty of muscle. For most HS athletes too i really like just using breif max tension with static dynamic method.
but that is the beauty of conjugate....if you notice a weakness with majority of atheltes, you simply pivot between ME, DE or Repetition method to address as needed. Notice a particular weakness for specific kid or a couple kids...simply add 1 or 2 special exercises to address it.
Prez....thank you for taking the time to write that. love that kind of interaction
another program from defranco is the Strong bastard 911 program that covers using conjugate for athletes.
another great resource is nate harvey - here is his basic conjugate 4 athletes
LINK
FTR...i think Fahey lay out plus sprints is the best for 80% of athletes and prolly 95%_of Football & basketball players
This post was edited on 9/13/24 at 11:36 am
Posted on 9/13/24 at 11:41 am to lsu777
quote:
Prez....thank you for taking the time to write that. love that kind of interaction
Of course. It's been 10 years or so since I was a real S&C coach. But I still train myself and my buddies that way.
I really appreciate the info you put out to everyone. Most don't understand enough to appreciate it. When I was younger the best we had was Bigger Faster Stronger. Westside Barbell, Conjugate System, Louis Simmons were largely unheard of. Giving this info for free on a message board, compared to what we had mid/late 1990's, is great stuff.
Posted on 9/13/24 at 11:49 am to PrezCock
thanks man, i try and pass as much as i can to others as I dont do this full time and i dont have like a business to pass on. I just try and teach and try to make complicated subjects easy to digest. athletic training is my real passion.
and its so funny to see BFS demonized across the board by so many in S&C that want to feel special. BFS was essentially a well programmed initial version of 531 but conjugates in some aspects
wasnt perfect but still better than 95% that is still being used now a days. Greg Sheppard was a smart man for sure
i think now the biggest thing is we have an understanding of how jumps and throws can easily replace and will out perform the olympic lifts. especially now that we have affordable VBT and jump sensors(OVR Performance is perfect example and the OVR jump is best in class) and other tech that allows us to test and verify so many things.
Travis mash, who is world champion PL and Olympic lifter and uses all kinds of methods including conjugate posted a great study yesterday on X LINK
and its so funny to see BFS demonized across the board by so many in S&C that want to feel special. BFS was essentially a well programmed initial version of 531 but conjugates in some aspects
wasnt perfect but still better than 95% that is still being used now a days. Greg Sheppard was a smart man for sure
i think now the biggest thing is we have an understanding of how jumps and throws can easily replace and will out perform the olympic lifts. especially now that we have affordable VBT and jump sensors(OVR Performance is perfect example and the OVR jump is best in class) and other tech that allows us to test and verify so many things.
Travis mash, who is world champion PL and Olympic lifter and uses all kinds of methods including conjugate posted a great study yesterday on X LINK
Posted on 9/13/24 at 12:00 pm to lsu777
quote:
olympic lifts
I've always disliked them for most sports. I cut them out completely with the guys I was training. Plyometrics is just as good with force production as olympic lifts, plus they are safer and easier to coach. It's a shame sports teams are so married to olympic lifts.
With that being said, if a person likes the olympic lifts, I'm all for them doing it. It's their choice. I just don't like how so many of our young athletes are forced to do them because their S&C coaches just carry on with the same old mentalities. Reminds me of why the Army never changes.
Posted on 9/13/24 at 12:06 pm to PrezCock
quote:
I've always disliked them for most sports. I cut them out completely with the guys I was training. Plyometrics is just as good with force production as olympic lifts, plus they are safer and easier to coach. It's a shame sports teams are so married to olympic lifts.
With that being said, if a person likes the olympic lifts, I'm all for them doing it. It's their choice. I just don't like how so many of our young athletes are forced to do them because their S&C coaches just carry on with the same old mentalities. Reminds me of why the Army never changes.
200%...i personally love cleans but when it comes to athletics its about results to me
well we have VBT now and know that olympic lifts that involve the catch portion are not fast enough to really change rate of force development, and are not heavy enough for max motor recruitment. just kind of in that dreaded middle ground.
we can simulate the triple ext with med balls better because of the release and no decel and we save time not having to waste time teaching them
we can produce better carry over to sprints and jumping ability with DB jumps
they are basically useless and even the study i posted shows, the catch portion where decel has to happen causes them to be inferior.
not to mention to even have the ability for rate of force development would have to be programmed at around 30%....good luck getting the head football coach to buy in on that and seeing his kids using ultra light weight.
Posted on 9/13/24 at 12:12 pm to lsu777
quote:
good luck getting the head football coach to buy in on that and seeing his kids using ultra light weight
Seriously. Especially high school, Head Football Coaches make the worst S&C coaches. They think they know everything and are immune to taking any kind of advice. I equate them to trying to help someone out in the gym with their form, they know it all already. You say anything to them they don't already know.
Don't let me de-rail your thread. Keep on pumping out the information.
Posted on 9/13/24 at 12:32 pm to PrezCock
quote:
Seriously. Especially high school, Head Football Coaches make the worst S&C coaches. They think they know everything and are immune to taking any kind of advice. I equate them to trying to help someone out in the gym with their form, they know it all already. You say anything to them they don't already know.
Sad but true. Most usually have an assistant coach on staff who worked out a little and therefore thinks he is the next coming of Joe Weider.
Posted on 9/13/24 at 12:54 pm to lsu777
This programming has some similarities to my strength and conditioning work for jiu jitsu.
I do a lot more zercher squats, board press, Z presses etc
I do a lot more zercher squats, board press, Z presses etc
Posted on 9/13/24 at 1:42 pm to PrezCock
Yeah I agree, there’s too many exercise you can do program to replace Olympic lifts
Posted on 9/23/24 at 2:42 pm to lsu777
Are you referring to overhead med ball throws when talking about triple extension? I’ve been on PPSA for solids three years and love everything about it. I am however an avid golfer and have been thinking about running sports strength with replacements for the Olympic lifts(I don’t know how to do them) as I increase my speed training this golf off season. I lurk on here a lot, and rarely contribute, but I’d like to say thanks for the non bs info you provide
Posted on 9/23/24 at 2:56 pm to TheWeatherMan
quote:
Are you referring to overhead med ball throws when talking about triple extension? I’ve been on PPSA for solids three years and love everything about it. I am however an avid golfer and have been thinking about running sports strength with replacements for the Olympic lifts(I don’t know how to do them) as I increase my speed training this golf off season. I lurk on here a lot, and rarely contribute, but I’d like to say thanks for the non bs info you provide
no problem on the info
golf is rotational sport, no need for triple extension but if you wanted to do that, i would suggest DB jumps and broad jumps
for med ball throws, shotput and scoop toss variations would be my suggestion along with single arm throws with 2/4 lb med balls with handles.
Bill miller, summers method, simone baseball all have good videos on throws for swings
bill also has a bunch of stuff on iso holds using a cheap crane scale to help swing power.
for now i would just add med ball throws, db jumps/broad jumps to your ppsa routine
pick 2-3 variations of throws for each day and do 5 throws each with them for distance or literally as hard as possible measuring distance day 1 and day 3
do one of the jump variations.
so day 1 db jump
day 2- broad and rotate like that
for db jumps start with 10% of squat max in each hand and wave them up and down 5lbs
example-300lbs squat max... use 25's, 30's, 35's. so day 1 you would do ~5 jumps with the 25s. day 2 broad jump, day 3- 30's, day 4 broad
weeks 2 day 1 would be with the 35's, then broad, then 25's, then broad
so on and so fourth
hope that makes sense
btw the ovr program would honeslty be perfect set up exactly as is plus med ball throws if you wanted to run that for like 12 weeks
This post was edited on 9/23/24 at 3:03 pm
Page 1 of 1
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News