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Message
re: 4 year long study on Wegovy/semaglutide shows heart benefits and safety
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:32 am to Solo Cam
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:32 am to Solo Cam
quote:
Do what you want, it's s free country.
Just so we're clear on the rest of my post: I'm in general agreement with you.
quote:
But if you believe it's a miracle weight loss pill and there won't be any side effects
I mean, are people really saying this? Feels strawmannish at the very least.
So, back to my original point, I believe that, in broad (heh) general terms, the overweight to slightly obese folks (BMI 25 to 31ish) absolutely should watch what/how much they eat, get sufficient exercise and all those positive things. Those things have benefits outside of weight loss so, frankly, everyone should do it to some degree (genetics cannot do everything).
Having said that, being significantly obese carries known risks of its own. The suggestion that the risks of these drugs/weight loss treatments are starting from 0 is disingenous. It must be balanced against the risk of remaining obese. That is classic risk/benefit analysis.
0
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:33 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
But for the vast majority of people, they just eat too much and don’t move enough and aren’t willing to do a little bit of work to help themselves.
Respectfully, you are factually wrong about this. Your assertion is from a sample size of one. Your personal life experience. Congrats on your personal journey to a healthier you. When tens of millions of people try to lose weight the way you did and have been unsuccessful countless times throughout their lives(eventually giving up because it doesn’t work for them), your answer is they aren’t trying hard enough? Wrong. They have tried over and over and over to no avail. There is a biological problem that needs to be fixed.
For whatever it’s worth, you can be forgiven for your past ignorance. The facts are now there for you. If you continue to ignore them, that will be your fault, though.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:35 am to Lazy But Talented
quote:
will these drugs eventually be prescribed for people who have binge eating disorder (BED)?
yes along with other addicitons like alcohol, sex addiciton, gambling etc
they suppress the dopamine response many get from these things especially when on the highest dose
one downside for many on the high dose, especially women, is lack of sex drive. even if they feel more confident they dont have the desire. now when they start lowering the dose, it returns and combined with the more confidence...usually leads to a much higher drive than before. especially for married couples as they tend to be more physically attractive to each other.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:35 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
Back in the 1950’s, a McDonald’s meal was the equivalent today of a single cheeseburger, a small fry and a small drink. That is what an adult filled up on. Now, people are scarfing down giant double patty cheeseburgers with bacon, a large fry and a gigantic soda. Multiple times a week.
People are just eating way more now than humans ever used to, and the food they are eating way more of now is way more calorie dense and unhealthy. That combination leads to people being huge. And that way of eating changes the brain chemistry to continue to eat that way. Humans weren’t born with this imbalance. It has been conditioned due to habit.
I think you have reading comprehension issues. The OP is telling you this exact thing. He is just framing it scientifically and telling you that it is a calculated issue to sell more bad food. He literally said that processed foods cause the GLP-1 imbalance, thus causing people to want more processed foods. You are focusing on OP calling it a hormonal thing instead of focusing on the cause of the hormonal thing.
ETA: It isn't the OP saying it. Its Bawthouse. My mistake.
This post was edited on 5/15/24 at 8:38 am
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:35 am to BawtHouse
quote:No. my sample size is the billions of people throughout history who have been a normal, healthy weight. Humans didn’t magically change 30 years ago.
Respectfully, you are factually wrong about this. Your assertion is from a sample size of one.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:36 am to Robin Masters
quote:
appreciate your overall sentiment but at 50yo I’ve lived long enough to have learned that there is no magic pill. There will be a massive side effect to these drugs. And if history is any guide it will likely come just after the drug companies have recouped their investment plus a few billion more and the subsequent lawsuits will be a few billion less than the profits.
In the context of human history, the discoveries of penicillin and handwashing in surgery are recent. Penicillin is less than 100 years old. Doctors laughed at the first guy that said they needed to wash their hands whenever they were working on someone 150 years ago.
With advancements in AI and medical technology, there's potential for further progress in extending human lives over the next 20-30 years. With the trend of technology in the past 20-30 years, who knows where we will be.
While there have been snake oil products and scams in the past, it doesn't discount the possibility of genuine breakthroughs today. Medicine has improved and medicines have adapted over time and to believe that it’s not continually moving forward is nonsense.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:40 am to Lsupimp
quote:
Even when the science is there about hormonal deficiencies that shows that a high percentage of people never feel satiated due to a specific hormonal deficiency that can now be addressed, people still want to shame the obese with moralistic lectures.
Well then they should be well adapted to live in a caloric deficit and be able to lose weight. I work very hard to eat right, stay lean and spend a good deal of my day feeling slightly hungry. Just out of curiosity, what gave you the impression that the normal state of being is “satiated”?
Thats like telling a man there is something wrong with you because you walk around constantly horny and wanting to frick and that the normal state of being is the satisfied feeling of post-coitus.
I will say however I have empathy for the obese because the options for people to get healthy food options is limited, especially for people in rural communities. Some of these towns have 3 restaurants and they are all fast food poison.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:40 am to ronricks
quote:
What you are doing with this bullshite is trying to justify people being lazy and fat slobs. These folks are addicted to things like fast food, potato chips, and sodas/sugary drinks. Lets not sugar coat this.
why are they addicted?
quote:
They are fat not because of 'hormones' but because of the idiotic choices they make regarding diet and exercise.
you sure...because we know for a fact foods like that cause release of sDPP-4 which suppresses GLP-1 and GIP
quote:
That is an actual fact
you are right, what i posted is 100% fact
quote:
here might be 2 or 3 people on this whole website whose hormonal balance couldn't be improved by proper diet, exercise, sleep, lifestyle changes and natural supplementation.
whoa...think you are misunderstanding.....it 100% can be improved with diet. there are natural sDPP-4 inhibiting foods, mostly unprocessed whole foods. but that doesnt stop the dopamine response that comes from eating ultra palatable processed foods aka food noise. These medicines stop that
quote:
This isn't to say they might eventually need something else in the future but it can be fixed the problem is nobody wants to put in the work it takes.
we agree that many do not take the medicine correctly and stick to minimum effective dose and we agree many do not use the medicine to make a huge lifestyle change and start lifting and tracking calories and that is the reason we see so much muscle loss, side effects etc
so the bodybuilders i know using these medicine in contest prep are not having these issues. they are using low dose and even those enhanced are able to use less anabolics and other peptides like growth and insulin and are able to lose weight faster. many are able to stick to a protien sparing modified fast for weeks without a single hiccup. huge change in contest prep for those guys.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:41 am to ronricks
So many factual errors that are addressed throughout this thread by people who actually have researched obesity. Worst post of the thread.
Let me explain it to you in lay terms:
Our shitty diet has created hormone deficiency . These hormone deficiencies make us crave shitty foods. Which in turn perpetuates a hormone deficiency. Which makes us crave shitty foods. And then we walk into a WalMart and errybody is obese.
Now imagine a medication that resolved the hormone deficiency that allowed obese people to eat healthy foods which created a hormone efficiency that made us crave healthy foods which created a hormone efficiency that made us….
And then a decade later we walk into Walmart and obesity is an outlier and it’s the 1970s again.
What is the problem with that again?
Let me explain it to you in lay terms:
Our shitty diet has created hormone deficiency . These hormone deficiencies make us crave shitty foods. Which in turn perpetuates a hormone deficiency. Which makes us crave shitty foods. And then we walk into a WalMart and errybody is obese.
Now imagine a medication that resolved the hormone deficiency that allowed obese people to eat healthy foods which created a hormone efficiency that made us crave healthy foods which created a hormone efficiency that made us….
And then a decade later we walk into Walmart and obesity is an outlier and it’s the 1970s again.
What is the problem with that again?
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:42 am to ronricks
quote:
What you are doing with this bullshite is trying to justify people being lazy and fat slobs.
So how do you explain people that eat the same terrible food constantly, never work out, and maintain a low BMI?
I’m not lobbing assumptions here. I’m giving you all the facts that are accepted and built upon in current research by the most informed members of the medical community at the absolute highest levels that are on the cutting edge of this.
Your inability to accept these facts is not my problem. You are free to continue with the antiquated thinking. Just be aware that you are factually wrong and more and more people will know it as time marches on.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:42 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Because again, the obesity epidemic is relatively new.
I'm not discounting any putative cause of obesity, but the overall analysis is fairly straightforward:
1. Just 100 to 120 years ago, most folks, even Americans worked in agriculture, heavy industry or otherwise worked a schedule from dawn to dusk at the very least - 12 to 14 hours of at least light/medium activity (versus sedentary). They sat down to rest at the end of the day and to eat. Otherwise, they were sleeping or working. Most folks had some degree of difficulty in maintaining caloric intake to match their output.
2. Food production, particularly during the post-war period absolutely skyrocketed. Multiple times over. That made vast quantities of food extremely cheap in the West (and frankly, even the Third World benefitted to a degree).
3. The economy has increasingly shifted away from heavy work and overwhelmingly folks are doing sedentary and very light jobs.
I mean, math isn't everything, but it certainly explains this. I'm not ignoring the fact that our food is shite and the chemicals in it might be causing negative behavior cycles and all that. At the end of the day, moving around more and eating less should solve all but the most problematic weight issues. Certainly all but about 5% or so.
Obviously, these drugs work because they help folks who have difficulty doing so.
This post was edited on 5/15/24 at 8:59 am
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:42 am to Rust Cohle
quote:
Not just obese, but most weights, normal and overweight also. What was failed to mention in the OP post was the most important finding in this trial, and was that they found Cardiovascular benefit without weight loss.
I haven't read this study - how do you get no weight loss with a weight loss drug and then have beneficial CV effects? What's going on there?
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:43 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
If people would stop eating like this and deal with the temporary discomfort, their body will change and adapt to their new way of eating. Most people just aren’t willing to do it. If these drugs can help people to kick the habit like a nicotine patch does for smokers, then I can see the value in that.
But don’t sit here and sell me this nonsense that obesity is some natural condition for most people and they have no culpability. That’s absolute nonsense.
nobody said different
but why do you give a frick on how they do it? why are you assigning a moralistic view point to things?
why cant you acknowledge not everyone has your discipline?
i dont need this medicine, but i can understand why others might
i dont really give a frick how people lose the fat, im just happy for less fat people.
and since you like to talk shite, what is your bodyfat %?
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:45 am to BawtHouse
quote:
So how do you explain people that eat the same terrible food constantly, never work out, and maintain a low BMI?
How many people are we talking about here?
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:47 am to lsu777
quote:
it normalizes the hormonal suppression that usually occurs when obese. talking suppression of GLP-1 and GIP through releases of sDPP-4
The one thing I hear consistently from those who’ve used these drugs to lose weight is that it’s broken their addiction to eating and, specifically, eating certain foods. A huge part of that is how the drugs regulate hormonally but also the break from those foods during the course of injections helps to overcome the dopamine addiction they experienced after eating those foods previously.
This post was edited on 5/15/24 at 8:50 am
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:47 am to PrimeTime Money
quote:
But don’t sit here and sell me this nonsense that obesity is some natural condition for most people and they have no culpability. That’s absolute nonsense.
Sorry you can’t accept facts. There is 100% a genetic component to this. Without question. I have already agreed that I believe there are compounding issues and that food supply is a big one.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:47 am to POTUS2024
quote:
I haven't read this study - how do you get no weight loss with a weight loss drug and then have beneficial CV effects? What's going on there?
quote:
“It remains unclear to what degree the trial findings were dependent on weight loss, concomitant reductions in risk factors, or other salutary mechanisms of GLP-1 receptor agonism,” Dr. Amit Khera, of the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center Dallas, and the National Institutes of Health’s Dr. Tiffany M. Powell-Wiley wrote in an editorial that was published Saturday in the New England Journal of Medicine along with the full results of the study, called Select.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:48 am to Robin Masters
quote:
Well then they should be well adapted to live in a caloric deficit and be able to lose weight. I work very hard to eat right, stay lean and spend a good deal of my day feeling slightly hungry.
cool, so how does others using a medicine to do the same effect you? why do you care? does it make you feel like they are cheating even though they are not in competition with you?
quote:
what gave you the impression that the normal state of being is “satiated”?
nobody but unless you experience food noise, then you wouldnt understand the cravings those people have.
go take a grehilin antagonist and let me know if you are able to withstand the cravings.....that is the type of cravings some have daily due to suppressed GLP-1 and GIP
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:48 am to lsu777
quote:
yes along with other addicitons like alcohol, sex addiciton, gambling etc
damn so i can finally get my 6 pack.
this is all very interesting to follow.
Posted on 5/15/24 at 8:49 am to LSUGrrrl
quote:
The one thing I hear consistently from those who’ve used these drugs to lose weight is that it’s broken their addiction to eating and, specifically, eating certain foods. A huge part of that is how the drugs regulate hormonally but also the break from those foods during the course of injections helps to overcome the serotonin addiction their experienced after eating those foods previously.
correct. its why they help so much with alcohol and sex addiction and im sure others that we will discover.
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