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Bayesian Statistics and the Conversion Attempt
Posted on 9/9/22 at 11:47 am
Posted on 9/9/22 at 11:47 am
BK may have been correct regarding kicking for the PAT and playing for overtime, but maybe not. There are more statistics involved to arrive at the right decision.
If a successful PAT is a 96% probability, the probability of winning in overtime must also be considered. If winning in OT is a 50-50 proposition, the chance of both kicking the PAT AND winning in OT is actually 48%, and not much different from going for the two point conversion (47%).
However, if the odds of winning in OT are 60% (say, given that we had momentum), then the chance of converting the PAT AND winning in OT rises to 57.6%, and favors playing for OT.
Personally, I think we had them back on their heels right then; and we may have had a better than 47% chance of converting for two. Who knows! Hindsight is still 20-20.
If a successful PAT is a 96% probability, the probability of winning in overtime must also be considered. If winning in OT is a 50-50 proposition, the chance of both kicking the PAT AND winning in OT is actually 48%, and not much different from going for the two point conversion (47%).
However, if the odds of winning in OT are 60% (say, given that we had momentum), then the chance of converting the PAT AND winning in OT rises to 57.6%, and favors playing for OT.
Personally, I think we had them back on their heels right then; and we may have had a better than 47% chance of converting for two. Who knows! Hindsight is still 20-20.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 11:49 am to MidCityTiger
2-pt conversion would’ve been the right call, but I don’t fault BK for the extra point.
Definitely a “what could have been” type of situation.
Definitely a “what could have been” type of situation.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 11:57 am to MidCityTiger
We probably get the 2pt conversion and also probably beat them in OT. We had all the momentum.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 12:05 pm to MidCityTiger
quote:
BK may have been correct regarding kicking for the PAT and playing for overtime, but maybe not.
Come on man, can you imagine if he went for 2 and missed what this place would have been like?
Stop this nonsense.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 12:07 pm to MidCityTiger
Without knowing the extra-point would be blocked or what the outcome of OT would be, there was probably no "wrong" decision in the moment. That is one of those where the HC has to make a call on "feel".
Even before the XP was blocked I wanted Kelly to go for two. LSU had just driven 99 yards, nearly unimpeded, in just over a minute. They would have had the ball in their possession, at the 2 yard line, with a hot QB, and a chance to end the game right then and there. A chance quite frankly they never should have had in the first place but for FSU foolishly fumbling on the LSU goal-line with a chance to make it a two possession game with very little time remaining.
I didn't want to move the ball back to the 25 in OT and give FSU another possession when LSU was probably fortunate to have a chance to win it in regulation anyway. In other words, LSU shouldn't have had a chance to win that game after the Nabers fumble...but they did, and after the TD was the time to take full advantage without giving FSU another chance to win.
Had LSU scored with a minute or two remaining on the clock then I probably would have said kick the XP and go to OT. But with no time left on the clock that was the time to go for the killshot
Even before the XP was blocked I wanted Kelly to go for two. LSU had just driven 99 yards, nearly unimpeded, in just over a minute. They would have had the ball in their possession, at the 2 yard line, with a hot QB, and a chance to end the game right then and there. A chance quite frankly they never should have had in the first place but for FSU foolishly fumbling on the LSU goal-line with a chance to make it a two possession game with very little time remaining.
I didn't want to move the ball back to the 25 in OT and give FSU another possession when LSU was probably fortunate to have a chance to win it in regulation anyway. In other words, LSU shouldn't have had a chance to win that game after the Nabers fumble...but they did, and after the TD was the time to take full advantage without giving FSU another chance to win.
Had LSU scored with a minute or two remaining on the clock then I probably would have said kick the XP and go to OT. But with no time left on the clock that was the time to go for the killshot
Posted on 9/9/22 at 12:11 pm to MidCityTiger
The correct call was to go for 2 on the first touchdown scored while down 14.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 12:12 pm to MidCityTiger
If BK was going to go for 2, it would've been better to do it after we cut it to 8. At least, that's what the numbers say. It gives you another opportunity to go for 2 if you miss the first one. If he always planned to try to win in overtime, then kicking the PAT both times made sense.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 12:20 pm to MidCityTiger
quote:
There are more statistics involved to arrive at the right decision.
decisions shouldn't be made merely on statistics. game flow, conditioning level, momentum and confidence subjective and unmeasurable. so those metrics dont mean jack. analytics have their place but not in that time situation. you go with your gut. there is only one HC. Make the choice that you are paid to make.
If we went for two and didnt get it the outrage would be off the charts. stop second guessing. Its been a week bro
Posted on 9/9/22 at 12:23 pm to MidCityTiger
This kicker is really making a lot of people feel uneasy moving forward throughout the season.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 12:39 pm to MidCityTiger
Bayesian statistics also say you should go for it on 4th down in just about every situation. Statistics are great until you factor in the risk aversion associated with getting fired from your $10M job because you chose to be the outlier in your industry.
This post was edited on 9/9/22 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 9/9/22 at 1:08 pm to MidCityTiger
Geez. That is why I don’t think relying on analytics heavily is great. It’s an intuitive game, meaning that the more you break trends, the more your competition has to recalibrate and adjust. If both teams are relying on them, a deduction can be made on what each other will call in critical situations. So back to being intuitive….why even bother.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 1:09 pm to MidCityTiger
I'm not seeing the Bayesianism in the OP.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 1:34 pm to MidCityTiger
quote:
BK may have been correct regarding kicking for the PAT and playing for overtime, but maybe not.
I stopped reading after this line....
Posted on 9/9/22 at 2:30 pm to MidCityTiger
I felt like we should have gone for 2 with Daniels running it in
FSU hadn’t stopped him all day
FSU hadn’t stopped him all day
Posted on 9/9/22 at 2:30 pm to MidCityTiger
Maybe CBK was thinking he had the better team at that point in the game and getting to OT favored LSU.
Shows confidence in players after a game where most things didn't go your way
.
Shows confidence in players after a game where most things didn't go your way
.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 2:40 pm to MidCityTiger
If CBK feels like he as a 2 pt. conversion play in his pocket that he is very confident about then you go for two. That changes the percentages in your favor.
If CBK feels like he did not have a 2 pt. conversion play that he felt confident about then you kick the extra point.
He obviously felt like kicking the extra point was the right thing to do.
If CBK feels like he did not have a 2 pt. conversion play that he felt confident about then you kick the extra point.
He obviously felt like kicking the extra point was the right thing to do.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 3:33 pm to MidCityTiger
From a purely statistical perspective, the right answer is to go for the two point conversion on the previous touchdown. Then, you can either 2 point to tie it post the final touchdown or kick the PAT to win.
Posted on 9/9/22 at 3:33 pm to MidCityTiger
I agree that it was a pretty even decision, but I would have gone for 2. In OT, often the games is decided by a mistake. Maybe an lineman misses an assignment and the QB gets sacked. Maybe a DB misses an assignment and gives up an easy TD. Maybe somebody does something stupid. We were playing in our first game, with new systems, and a lot of new players, and they were a rather senior laden team that has been running the same system for years with a game under their belt. So, we were probably more likely to make a stupid error at that point. They might have had some more trick plays ready as well. So, I think the odds of the 2-pointer while we have momentum was the better call. Taking the kick wasn't a bad call though.
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