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re: Are we fooling ourselves with the "trade BI" soft rebuild talk?
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:50 am to Fun Bunch
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:50 am to Fun Bunch
quote:Yea, when your best player has been injured and didn't finish the season 4 seasons in a row and 4 out of 5, it's definitely a fair question.
I'm not saying we are or should. The OP is quite obviously a devil's advocate thread.
And the reason is because Zion is currently where he always is when we need him: Glued to the bench and training table
I just think we need to ride it out, take our chances, and hope we get a couple of seasons where Zion is healthy for the postseason and try to hit lightning in a bottle. I don't think we have a chance of that if we trade Zion, so that's our best option.
0
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:52 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:I don't think we should trade Zion, but it IS dumb to just think Zion will be invested from game 1 next season.
Again, wtf?
5 years in, we have gotten exactly 0 full seasons of Zion's buy in. Sure, we can have more confidence now than we've ever had. But to think it's a guarantee is pretty silly IMO.
We've ranted and raved about Zion's buy in and effort, and we only saw it for 2 months. Where would we have been in the standings if Zion did that starting from camp and into preseason and game 1? That shite's on Zion.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:52 am to shel311
quote:
but it IS dumb to just think Zion will be invested from game 1 next season.
5 years in, we have gotten exactly 0 full seasons of Zion's buy in. Sure, we can have more confidence now than we've ever had. But to think it's a guarantee is pretty silly IMO.
Again, this has nothing to do with what I said.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:53 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
How? its not saying we actually do any thing. It is simply a devil's advocate thread.
We’re down 2-0 to the best team in the west without our star player and our #2 is playing like shite. I mean what did you expect? This team talent wise is not good enough to compete with this team without Zion- not sure why people thought otherwise.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:54 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:
without our star player
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:00 am to Fun Bunch
This is a trend. These 2 games have been awful but we were also fricking terrible at the back end of the season.
There’s too much wrong to be satisfied with how we are.
We fluffed 4th and home court, snuck into 8th through the skin of our teeth … and just put in an abject performance to go 2 down.
Running it back can’t be an option, we need to be better and do SOMETHING.
There’s too much wrong to be satisfied with how we are.
We fluffed 4th and home court, snuck into 8th through the skin of our teeth … and just put in an abject performance to go 2 down.
Running it back can’t be an option, we need to be better and do SOMETHING.
This post was edited on 4/25/24 at 11:01 am
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:05 am to shel311
quote:
I don't think we should trade Zion, but it IS dumb to just think Zion will be invested from game 1 next season. 5 years in, we have gotten exactly 0 full seasons of Zion's buy in. Sure, we can have more confidence now than we've ever had. But to think it's a guarantee is pretty silly IMO. We've ranted and raved about Zion's buy in and effort, and we only saw it for 2 months. Where would we have been in the standings if Zion did that starting from camp and into preseason and game 1? That shite's on Zion.
Shell Im usually with you but not understanding taking your anger of this season out on Zion here.
Nothing is a guarantee. But we’re not exactly sure what was the reason for lack of conditioning which he himself had admitted. To me thats a big admission and not something I just toss to the side and don’t care. Maybe the hamstring injury was pretty severe last year and affected his offseason conditioning and maybe not.
From what I saw from the last 2 months is leadership, elite play and a change in mentality from a player previously. It seems like you’re angry why wasn’t this there before. Well hes young and hes maturing; he played 70 plus games and basically helped us to win 49 games. Im not gonna just toss that away. For instance you’re a big CJ guy- he has absolutely played like dog shite in the past 4 or 5 games. But hes had a fantastic season. Are you willing to get rid of him just because hes struggling now and likely is costing us playoff wins?
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:07 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:For the 4th year in a row to finish the season.
without our star player
quote:It's a valid question to trade Zion because we all, based on previous facts, should expect Zion to not be available for the postseason next season or the following one, and so on and so forth...
I mean what did you expect?
quote:I don't think the OP was made based off the results of these last 2 games solely.
This team talent wise is not good enough to compete with this team without Zion- not sure why people thought otherwise.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:10 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:What anger? I'm simply talking about realistic future expectations.
but not understanding taking your anger of this season out on Zion here.
And a realistic future expectation for Zion next season is that he will play less than half the season AND not be available for the playoffs.
I don't think it's at all crazy to question if we should keep that guy as our #1, even though I think we should.
quote:I am saying for 5 years you have never seen it from day 1, so it would be silly to assume we will see it from day 1 next season. That's pretty darn logical.
From what I saw from the last 2 months is leadership, elite play and a change in mentality from a player previously. It seems like you’re angry why wasn’t this there before.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:11 am to Fun Bunch
quote:
Is the REAL answer that we just should really blow it all up, get as much as we can, and shoot for rock bottom in what appears to be an elite draft?
absolutely not.
quote:
But Zion is...sitting on the bench. In the playoffs. Again. Yes, he has shown some elite moments, and yes he just had his most healthy year. But when we needed him, where is he? Hurt. Again.
Why would we have faith that he will ever be anything reliable for us?
B/c he has the potential to win a title as our guy. Guys like that don't come around often enough. You have to give it all you can and try to win with him.
He hasn't even started his second contract yet.
We are too talented and young right now to quit and try again.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:12 am to Fun Bunch
Ok so you’re thinking just blow it up because 49 wins and being down 2-0 to number one seed is not acceptable? Our star played 70 games and pulled his hammy at wrong time. But context doesn’t matter.
What is the point of this thread? Don’t play devils advocate and just fricking say you want to blow it up and backtrack when people call you out on it. Either you want to blow it up or you don’t? Which is it?
What is the point of this thread? Don’t play devils advocate and just fricking say you want to blow it up and backtrack when people call you out on it. Either you want to blow it up or you don’t? Which is it?
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:17 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:I think it's the fact that our #1 has been unavailable at the end of the last 4 seasons.
Ok so you’re thinking just blow it up because 49 wins and being down 2-0 to number one seed is not acceptable?
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:27 am to shel311
quote:
I think it's the fact that our #1 has been unavailable at the end of the last 4 seasons.
You’re not providing any context for this. He also played 70 plus games and played at an elite level the past 2 months.
To me you take this specific stance on Zion but then dont take the same stance on CJ. CJ in a majority of play-in and playoff games has been absolute trash. Sure he had a great regular season but the guy disappears in every big playoff game or playin game we have. If you think its logical for Zion to go, then you should think the same about CJ. Because he honestly has shite the bed in almost every big play-in or playoff game we had since hes been here.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:56 am to Pels_Yaz
quote:Because none is needed
You’re not providing any context for this. There's nothing to add that changes that statement in any way.
quote:And then wasn't available to finish the season, just like the 3 seasons before. THat's the context to your statement.
He also played 70 plus games and played at an elite level the past 2 months.
quote:1. He's playing
To me you take this specific stance on Zion but then dont take the same stance on CJ. CJ in a majority of play-in and playoff games has been absolute trash. Sure he had a great regular season but the guy disappears in every big playoff game or playin game we have. If you think its logical for Zion to go, then you should think the same about CJ. Because he honestly has shite the bed in almost every big play-in or playoff game we had since hes been here.
2. He's not the face of our franchise
3. For 2 seasons now, I've been saying we need to trade CJ this offseason or before his contract is up, so I think you're incorrect saying I don't take the same stance for CJ. I'm on record for multiple years saying we need to eventually trade CJ, and also on record in this thread saying we should not trade Zion. So I guess you're technically correct that I don't have the same stance for Zion and CJ, it's just both opposite of what you're arguing here lol.
This post was edited on 4/25/24 at 11:57 am
Posted on 4/25/24 at 12:05 pm to shel311
quote:
And then wasn't available to finish the season, just like the 3 seasons before. THat's the context to your statement.
Sure if you want to generalize like that and forget he played 70 games and not 20 games in seasons prior go ahead.
quote:
He's playing
Ok but hes not effective and hurting our team.
quote:
2. He's not the face of our franchise
Still one of the leaders and one of the best players on our team.
quote:
I'm on record for multiple years saying we need to eventually trade CJ, and also on record in this thread saying we should not trade Zion.
Maybe you have but this year everytime someone trashes CJ or wants to trade him in regards to his performance- you argue hes been an amazing 3pt shooter this year and adversely argue against the anti-CJ stance.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 12:21 pm to Pels_Yaz
I have a hard time hating on CJ and Jonas even in games when they suck, because at least they play through shite.
Zion played 70+ games this year, that's fantastic. Zion also couldn't play more than 35 mpg this year until about a month ago because he came into the season out of shape, that's not fantastic. There's always been a caveat with him every year he has been with us and that's not conducive to success when your best player needs specific conditions to be great.
We can't trade him because he is our only chance at ever having a true star on this team – been saying that for the last three years when people on here got fed up with his BS and began clamoring to get rid of him and start over. With that said, with each passing day, I fear he will never realize his true potential as a Pelican.
Zion played 70+ games this year, that's fantastic. Zion also couldn't play more than 35 mpg this year until about a month ago because he came into the season out of shape, that's not fantastic. There's always been a caveat with him every year he has been with us and that's not conducive to success when your best player needs specific conditions to be great.
We can't trade him because he is our only chance at ever having a true star on this team – been saying that for the last three years when people on here got fed up with his BS and began clamoring to get rid of him and start over. With that said, with each passing day, I fear he will never realize his true potential as a Pelican.
This post was edited on 4/25/24 at 12:25 pm
Posted on 4/25/24 at 12:23 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:That's quite literally not generalizing
Sure if you want to generalize like that
Zion hasn't been available to finish the season 4 seasons in a row. That's not a general statement. Whether he played 29 games, or 0 games or 70 games, he was still not available to play in the playoffs.
quote:Ok, how does this relate to you incorrectly stating I don't have the same stance with CJ when I'm on record stating we do need to trade CJ?
Ok but hes not effective and hurting our team.
quote:Well, there IS a difference in a guy playing well over the course of an entire season vs a guy who hasn't been available for the postseason 4 straight years.
Maybe you have but this year everytime someone trashes CJ or wants to trade him in regards to his performance- you argue hes been an amazing 3pt shooter this year and adversely argue against the anti-CJ stance.
But again, I'm on record stating we should keep Zion and right about now is the time we'll have to trade CJ between now and the next calendar year or so.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 12:42 pm to shel311
quote:
Zion hasn't been available to finish the season 4 seasons in a row. That's not a general statement. Whether he played 29 games, or 0 games or 70 games, he was still not available to play in the playoffs.
Ok then lets also go on record and say doesn’t matter what CJ has done in regular season since hes been a pelican hes had bad postseason games.
quote:
Ok, how does this relate to you incorrectly stating I don't have the same stance with CJ when I'm on record stating we do need to trade CJ?
You’re also on record of arguing with people this season when they want to trade CJ and point out his regular season success. So to be fair, I’m not really sure where you stand on what you want to do with CJ.
quote:
Well, there IS a difference in a guy playing well over the course of an entire season vs a guy who hasn't been available for the postseason 4 straight years.
No the real comparison you should be making is one guy has played horrendous in the playoffs v one who hasn’t made it.
Meaning we don’t know what Zion can do in the playoffs and we know CJ has not performed well in Pelicans postseason.
quote:
But again, I'm on record stating we should keep Zion and right about now is the time we'll have to trade CJ between now and the next calendar year or so.
To be fair I completely agree with this point.
But you have regularly argued against people who trash CJ and wanted to trade him. In fact you advocated there is world where CJ could be this team’s number two in your arguments with Teddy. Again which brings me back to where you really stand on CJ.
All im saying is you have a right to trash Zion for his lack of postseason appearances but at the same time you should do the same to CJ in regards to his postseason ineffectiveness as well.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 12:56 pm to Pels_Yaz
quote:Playing out of expected role because...as has been the case 4 straight years, Zion isn't there.
Ok then lets also go on record and say doesn’t matter what CJ has done in regular season since hes been a pelican hes had bad postseason games.
quote:All of that is true and dependent on....Zion playing which is something we cannot depend on.
But you have regularly argued against people who trash CJ and wanted to trade him. In fact you advocated there is world where CJ could be this team’s number two in your arguments with Teddy. Again which brings me back to where you really stand on CJ.
I'd love to see CJ playing postseason games off of Zion, but we haven't and that's 100% on Zion and 0% on CJ.
This post was edited on 4/25/24 at 12:57 pm
Posted on 4/25/24 at 1:01 pm to shel311
quote:
Playing out of expected role because...as has been the case 4 straight years, Zion isn't there
Ok. So are you now saying its ok for CJ to perform badly because he’s not in his specific role and thats Zions’s fault? Are we now blaming Zion for CJ shitting the bed for every pelicans postseason game?
quote:
I'd love to see CJ playing postseason games off of Zion, but we haven't and that's 100% on Zion and 0% on CJ.
Sure so do I. I would also like CJ to perform well in a pels postseason game regardless if Zion is on the court or not.
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