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Message
re: BI has 1 3PA in the first 2 games combined
Posted on 4/25/24 at 8:14 am to 50_Tiger
Posted on 4/25/24 at 8:14 am to 50_Tiger
quote:
Get on the phone GRIFF
Where the hell do I sign up?
Murray Herb Trey Zion Allen as starters and CJ as the 6th man is finally a rotation that makes sense.
Have CJ and Hawk coming off the bench bombing 7-8 3s each
I'd even try to resign JV as a backup if we could get him for cheap
Murray/CJ/Jose
Herb/Dyson/Hawk
Trey/Dyson/Matt Ryan
Zion/Karlo/EJ
Allen/JV/Karlo
1
Posted on 4/25/24 at 8:38 am to Balsamic_duck
Id be back channeling the frick out of this even now 
Posted on 4/25/24 at 9:26 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:On 2k, sure. Not in real life.
You go where you get traded. Simple as that.
Your list was a bunch of dudes who are not #2s on a title team. The only outlier was Kawhi, and that was a complete outlier/weird situation that was needed for his trade.
The only other potential #2 on that list right now is Donovan Mitchell, who again, is not a realistic option so not sure why he is brought up.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 9:36 am to shel311
I dont know what else to tell you.
No one just doesn't show up when traded.
what does that have to do with anything?
do you think we can only trade for guys that are #2's on title teams?
No one just doesn't show up when traded.
quote:
Your list was a bunch of dudes who are not #2s on a title team.
what does that have to do with anything?
do you think we can only trade for guys that are #2's on title teams?
Posted on 4/25/24 at 9:45 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:You're getting there...becuase a player as good as the one you're trying to get goes to the team he wants, so why would he just not show up?
No one just doesn't show up when traded.
quote:That's been your very literal argument this entire time.
what does that have to do with anything?
do you think we can only trade for guys that are #2's on title teams?
You said 2 things:
1. We have to trade BI for a #2
2. "We're trying to win a title, right?"
So yes, you are arguing that we need a #2 that is good enough to win a title, that's been the main premise of this entire discussion we've had.
And to bring it back home, if you think we need to trade BI for a #2 that is isn't necessarily good enough to win a title, CJ can do that. So it's not necessary. if it happens, that's fine. But trading BI for a subpar #2, there's no reason we HAVE to do that with a BI trade.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 9:55 am to shel311
quote:
BI isn't a #2, so we don't lose a #2 by trading him.
You lose 20 ppg of self created buckets. Teddy is rightfully saying if you get rid of Ingram, that some equivalent offensive engine needs to come back to replace him. Trey is not there yet from a creation perspective and if you are putting that responsibility on CJ's plate, then you'll see a version of the shite player everyone hated last season with even worse defense.
Ingram needs to go, but it needs to be for someone you can run an offense through with KAT, Murray, and Garland being the 3 most mentioned as potentially available. Lower level options would be Anfernee Simons, Jalen Green, or Coby White, but they are all much more flawed.
This post was edited on 4/25/24 at 10:00 am
Posted on 4/25/24 at 9:59 am to shel311
quote:
You're getting there...becuase a player as good as the one you're trying to get goes to the team he wants, so why would he just not show up?
I didnt' say i wanted to trade for a top 10 player in the league.
And did Damian Lillard say "i want to play for the Bucks"? No he didn't, but he's there isnt' he.
And Damian Lillard isn't good enough to win a title as a #1, thus he needs to be a #2 if he wants a title.
Same with Paul George. He was a #1, wasn't good enough to be a #1 on a title team.
Siakam just got traded to Indy. he showed up.
quote:
You said 2 things:
1. We have to trade BI for a #2
2. "We're trying to win a title, right?"
So you just automatically think that ONLY means it has to be a #2 from a title team? So we can only trade for Jamal Murray or Middleton or Klay Thompson or AD?
That's not what that means at all.
Lauri is Utah's #1. He's not a #1 on a title team. Therefor, he can be our #2 possibly on a title team.
DeRozan is not a #1. He's been one and his teams never got over the hump like when the real #1 in Kawhi came in and won a title. He can be a #2 on a title team maybe.
KAT was the #1 on Minny until Ant showed up. He didnt' win shite except the #1 pick in the draft. Now he's their #2 and they are much closer to title contenders.
That bitch AD was a #1 and did nothing. He becomes a #2 and they win a title.
There are plenty of guys who are their teams #1, that have no shot at winning a title as the #1 guy. The list of guys in that category of being good enough as the #1 to win a title are short. We are hoping Zion is on that list, which i think he can be. If you don't have that guy, you have no shot.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:04 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:It wasn't his top choices but he DID sign off on it, so Dame actually proves my point. Usin the Dame logic, if the player doesn't want to come to New Orleans, he isn't coming to New Orleans.
And did Damian Lillard say "i want to play for the Bucks"? No he didn't, but he's there isnt' he.
quote:Not from a title team, a #2 that makes US a title team. That's basically what you've been arguing. And again, if it's not, then we don't need a not good enough #2 if we trade Bi because we already have someone who an fit the not good enough #2 role.
So you just automatically think that ONLY means it has to be a #2 from a title team? So we can only trade for Jamal Murray or Middleton or Klay Thompson or AD?
That's not what that means at all.
quote:Right, and if we can get that for BI, great. But if we can't, that does not mean we should not trade BI. We can still trade BI, and also still have enough assets at the deadline or next offseason to put enough salary and pieces to get the next #2 as well.
We are hoping Zion is on that list, which i think he can be. If you don't have that guy, you have no shot.
It's not nor it should be "trade BI for a #2 or don't trade him at all" when the alternative is extend BI or let him walk.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:09 am to NOFOX
quote:You replace those shots in many ways, some of which are more shots for Zion and Trey, meaning, more efficient shots.
You lose 20 ppg of self created buckets
quote:The main difference between CJ last season and a BI at #2 was CJ played the entire season with a hand injury that required a surgery. I think it goes without saying he would have shot better if he didn't have an injury requiring surgery on his shooting hand.
and if you are putting that responsibility on CJ's plate, then you'll see a version of the shite player everyone hated last season with even worse defense.
CJ is a slightly lesser version of BI, it's not the big drop off that is being presented.
quote:I'm ok with those guys. My argument is not that we should NOT try to get that type of guy. My argument is that if none of those guys are available or not traded here, we should still work to trade BI for guys like a Mobley or Allen who aren't going to be a #2. THat's been my argument all along.
Ingram needs to go, but it needs to be for someone you can run an offense through with KAT, Murray, and Garland being the 3 most mentioned as potentially available.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:46 am to shel311
quote:
You replace those shots in many ways, some of which are more shots for Zion and Trey, meaning, more efficient shots.
You still need someone to run the offense through when Zion is not in the game. Trey cannot do that becuase his handle is a mess and he lacks a first step. CJ can do it poorly because he's not athletic enough to get to the rim or finish.
quote:
The main difference between CJ last season and a BI at #2 was CJ played the entire season with a hand injury that required a surgery. I think it goes without saying he would have shot better if he didn't have an injury requiring surgery on his shooting hand.
CJ is a slightly lesser version of BI, it's not the big drop off that is being presented.
quote:
CJ had a hand injury, but throughout his career he becomes less and less efficient as he has the ball in his hands more and more. He's not a lead guard. He can be a fine pick & roll ball handler against second units and comparable to BI there, but he has no burst, is not a great finisher, and 'craftiness' only takes you so far.
CJ is also a liability on defense and in isolation. BI is 57th percentile in isolation scoring with a 49.2 EFG%, CJ is 39.5 percentile with a 41.5 EFG%. The difference between BI and CJ is as big as the difference between Zion and BI. CJ was great this season because he wasn't asked to create as much, he just had to shoot.
Ideally CJ is your 6th man, not your #2. Jarrett Allen doesn't solve our problems. I don't get how people can watch OKC demolish us and then think, a non-shooting big is the way to go. I would rather a picks based package than Allen. More inclined to gamble on Mobley (though doubt he is available) because he could anchor a modern defense, but is still only 22 and has the potential, however unlikely to raeach it, to become a 3rd option on offense.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:48 am to shel311
quote:
It wasn't his top choices but he DID sign off on it, so Dame actually proves my point. Usin the Dame logic, if the player doesn't want to come to New Orleans, he isn't coming to New Orleans.
again, i'm not trading for a a guy like that.
Dame is at a point in his career where he's earned that respect from Portland, like Jrue did with us.
quote:
It's not nor it should be "trade BI for a #2 or don't trade him at all" when the alternative is extend BI or let him walk.
I get what you're saying, and agree somewhat. I don't want to extend him either and then try to trade him. That'll be impossible. Extending him means he's here for good, win or lose.
But we have all the assets needed to trade him now and get whatever we want back. It makes no sense to trade him for nickels and dimes b/c that doesn't help us get to title contention, nor does hoping to make a future trade after you trade him for nickles and dimes.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:57 am to NOFOX
quote:He's basically slightly worse at it than BI
CJ can do it poorly because he's not athletic enough to get to the rim or finish.
quote:If you're redistributing BI's shots, CJ doesn't need to up his usage THAT much.
CJ had a hand injury, but throughout his career he becomes less and less efficient as he has the ball in his hands more and more.
quote:Agree that CJ is not a #2, just like BI is not a #2. Allen isn't my top choice, but I am a firm believer Allen swapped for BI instantly makes this team better going forward. We can't underestimate getting Trey into the starting lineup, where he crushes when given the opportunity for extended periods of time.
Ideally CJ is your 6th man, not your #2. Jarrett Allen doesn't solve our problems.
quote:There's really nothing to take schematically from this series because Zion isn't playing.
I don't get how people can watch OKC demolish us and then think, a non-shooting big is the way to go. I would rather a picks based package than Allen
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:00 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:My main premise in all of this is...
I get what you're saying, and agree somewhat. I don't want to extend him either and then try to trade him. That'll be impossible. Extending him means he's here for good, win or lose.
But we have all the assets needed to trade him now and get whatever we want back. It makes no sense to trade him for nickels and dimes b/c that doesn't help us get to title contention, nor does hoping to make a future trade after you trade him for nickles and dimes.
- Make a priority list of dudes you will try to get for BI this offseason
- Allen should be on that list. Definitely not at the top, but somewhere in the middle, bottom...just mainly on the list
- As you call teams and see what is available, if you get to a point where you've checked everyone above Allen off the list, and he is your best option available, you make the trade for Allen if you can
- And if we swapped BI for Allen, IMO this team will be better for doing so. Maybe not better than if we traded for guys above Allen on the list, but better than we were before trading for Allen
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:05 am to NOFOX
quote:
CJ was great this season because he wasn't asked to create as much, he just had to shoot.
I've been trying to make people understand this the past month or so.
CJ as the #3 was able to change his shot chart and be a really great player.
But when BI or Zion are out, CJ reverts back to his old ways and you see more mid range shots go up b/c of it.
It doesn't matter who you're lead gaurd is, he's goign to take mid range shots b/c when the shot clock is running out he's asked to bail you out, and that's usually the shot that's taken. It's a mid range shot or a step back quick release 3, depending on who's gaurding you.
CJ as that third guy was outstanding, and the kind of guy you need to win a championship. But if he's #2, you got no shot.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 11:43 am to TeddyPadillac
quote:
But when BI or Zion are out, CJ reverts back to his old ways and you see more mid range shots go up b/c of it.
CJ with no BI or Zion: +6.0 Net Rating
CJ and BI ON with no Zion: +4.98
CJ and Zion ON with no BI: +4.86
Posted on 4/25/24 at 7:28 pm to shel311
quote:
There's really nothing to take schematically from this series because Zion isn't playing.
Hint: Watch OKC, not the Pels
Posted on 4/25/24 at 9:27 pm to shel311
quote:
CJ with no BI or Zion: +6.0 Net Rating CJ and BI ON with no Zion: +4.98 CJ and Zion ON with no BI: +4.86
Those are stats that don’t fit what I just said.
Those are in game stats when many games both Zion and BI were playing, just one on the bench.
I’ve posted the stats of CJs % of mid range shots when BI and Zion were playing, and then when BI wasn’t to close the season.
He went from 21% of his shots from the mid range during 35 games of good Zion and BI to 34% in 12 games without BI.
Last year when he was mostly playing without one of BI or Zion he was at 38%.
See the difference.
If he’s the true #2, his shot chart will revert back to what it’s always been, not what it was when BI and Zion both played this year.
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:11 pm to TeddyPadillac
And we won those minutes...
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:24 pm to shel311
Kind of like how we went 25-12 when all 3 guys played after Christmas, but I keep being told the stats say when they share the court together they aren’t good.
So what is it, stats, or winning?
So what is it, stats, or winning?
Posted on 4/25/24 at 10:41 pm to TeddyPadillac
-2.90 net rating with all 3 on the court this season.
But again, the main premise of yours with CJ as #2, we played really well this season when CJ played without 1 of the 2 other stars on the court.
In fact, we had a better net rating with only CJ ON compared to only BI and only Zion ON.
But again, the main premise of yours with CJ as #2, we played really well this season when CJ played without 1 of the 2 other stars on the court.
In fact, we had a better net rating with only CJ ON compared to only BI and only Zion ON.
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