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Message
re: United Methodist Church votes to allow gay marriage and gay clergy
Posted on 5/2/24 at 2:50 pm to troyt37
Posted on 5/2/24 at 2:50 pm to troyt37
quote:
you are Peter,
Jesus re-named Simon and called him the Aramaic word for the English langauge word for "rock" or "stone". This term applies to more than just Simon Peter, as we know from the Bible. Peter was simply the last entity to be referred to as "rock", and Jesus gave him that name.
Then Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. It's all right there plain as day, and for over 1,500 years, it was official and understood by Christendom, until some men calling themselves Reformers twisted logic, denied facts and ignored history just to invent a new Biblical interpretation.
That's exactly what the Methodist Church is doing today with regard to accepting Gay Sex and Gay Pastors. They are taking 2,000 years of Biblical interpretation and changing it to suit their worldly needs.
These Gay Pastors are wrong. 2,000 years of Christendom says so. The Reformers were and are wrong. 1,500 years of Christendom says so.
Now, these Methodist Gay Pastors tell us that Sola Scriptura applies here and that Sola Scriptura says that Gay Pastors and Gay Sex are OK. Maybe you should be arguing with them instead of trying to conjure up some ridiculous twisted interpretation to try to change what Jesus actually said about Peter.
Jesus doesn't like it when misguided men change what Jesus really said.
2
Posted on 5/2/24 at 2:51 pm to Perfect Circle
quote:Oh it's a church... preaching blasphemous teachings. The moment it happened, it became a tool of Satan instead and will continue to move toward him, away from Christianity.
Then it's no longer a church.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 2:51 pm to Champagne
quote:So you highjacked the thread when you were telling people not to highjack the thread.
Champagne
Posted on 5/2/24 at 3:18 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
United Methodist Church votes to allow gay marriage and gay clergy
Oh well. I’ve always been of the opinion that if an organization wants to commit suicide…. Go for it.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 3:32 pm to RollTide1987
Reading several articles about this, before the vote
Two things popped out
1) women pastors. Can't say all of them are progressives first, Christan somewhere after that but...all the ones that gave interviews
2) How many people thought " it's not a given that the vote was going to change the stance on gay marriage/pastorate". We'll it sure want adhered to before conservative Churches bolted... What did they think was going to happen when the churches that have an American flag then a pride flag right below it are even closer to a majority.
Two things popped out
1) women pastors. Can't say all of them are progressives first, Christan somewhere after that but...all the ones that gave interviews
2) How many people thought " it's not a given that the vote was going to change the stance on gay marriage/pastorate". We'll it sure want adhered to before conservative Churches bolted... What did they think was going to happen when the churches that have an American flag then a pride flag right below it are even closer to a majority.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 3:47 pm to SuperOcean
quote:I knew I was leaving the UMC in the Spring of last year when they pulled the rug out from under what we thought was going to be a decent (and I mean in the term decency) way of leaving. Either my Church would leave the UMC or I was perfectly settled with leave my Church of decades if it wanted to remain UMC. We voted 90+% to disaffiliate. But those of us who have been tracking this closely over the last few years knew that it was a matter of not if but when they would make this change. They've shut out the more conservative votes that were forced to remain. It was that pesky "Trust Clause" where they had you by the B****. You didn't own your property. The UMC held it in trust. Sure, you could walk away anytime. But leave your buildings' key on the desk on the way out.
2) How many people thought " it's not a given that the vote was going to change the stance on gay marriage/pastorate". We'll it sure want adhered to before conservative Churches bolted... What did they think was going to happen when the churches that have an American flag then a pride flag right below it are even closer to a majority.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 5:15 pm to Diamondawg
Our church is fairly conservative but not quick to make sudden moves. Most wanted to stay until there was an actual BOD change thinking that there were be extended time to leave. We hoped that it would not happen. Boy were we wrong to be so trusting. The other change that is just as big is the reorganization of regions. There will be a new regional structure purportedly to give Africa and other international regions “space to amend the book of discipline to meet their missional needs”. What they really did was block off any conservative international influence on US policy going forward. Checkmate. This was a coup 8 years in the making and they pulled it off. At least until the lawyers get involved and they will.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 5:28 pm to Uroblast
Posted on 5/2/24 at 5:31 pm to Uroblast
I also heard that they did the African churches dirty. But I’ve also heard the African churches don’t want any part of poop chute parishes.
Should be interesting.
Should be interesting.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 6:22 pm to Stitches
quote:Not at all, and I explained why in my last post, which you didn't quote adequately.
The UMC is making these decisions based on how it's leaders interpret scripture.
In other words, they are allowing publicly practicing homosexuals to be ordained and married within the church based on what they think scripture teaches.
However, according to you, no true adherent of Sola Scriptura would interpret scripture in such a way as to support these recent doctrines of the UMC.
That is quite literally the No true Scotsman fallacy.
I said, "If a professing Christian is claiming that the Bible as their highest authority commands them to support these things, then that's a different conversation about hermeneutics."
The problem here is that there are those who might officially hold to sola scriptura--as the UMC claims to hold to--while, in practice, they view the Scriptures through the lens of culture or other standards of truth (as progressive Christians do), and in doing so, they functionally place other standards as higher than the Bible, which is definitionally contrary to sola scriptura. And if they claim that they aren't holding other standards higher than the Scriptures while rejecting its clear teachings, then it becomes a conversation about hermeneutics and how they are not interpreting the Bible according to the Bible, as the Bible, itself, requires us to do in order to make the Scriptures meaningful (a rejection of subjective interpretations being equally valid among each other).
And to save space, I'll reply to another post here:
quote:I actually said that this is what happens when you move away from sola scriptura. I didn't say anything about an official doctrinal recognition of sola scriptura, but an active moving away from it, which is exactly what these people have done. They have rejected the clear words of God in favor of their own desires for "love" and inclusivity, which they are functionally holding as higher standards than the very word of God.
The point of my original response to Foo was to point out the flaw in his argument that Sola Scriptura adhering denominations don't have this issue, when in fact, ONLY Sola Scriptura adhering denominations have this issue.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 6:24 pm to Champagne
quote:Is it true you believe that the Catholic Church accepts every single book included in the Apocrypha as being Scripture?
Foo, isn't it true that you believe that the Earth itself is roughly only 6,000 years old?
Posted on 5/2/24 at 6:29 pm to Champagne
quote:No response to Augustine having a different interpretation?
Then Jesus gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. It's all right there plain as day, and for over 1,500 years, it was official and understood by Christendom, until some men calling themselves Reformers twisted logic, denied facts and ignored history just to invent a new Biblical interpretation.
Your response here provides a good summary of why you believe what you believe: because the Roman Catholic church says so. That's the very definition of sola ecclesia.
Your poor Biblical exegesis falls on its face and you have to resort to tradition every time.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 6:32 pm to RollTide1987
And people ask why Christianity is dying off… it’s doing this to itself.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 6:33 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
FooHamChoo
quote:
Your response here provides a good summary of why you believe what you believe: because the Roman Catholic church says so.
Posted on 5/2/24 at 6:35 pm to SouthEasternKaiju
Posted on 5/3/24 at 4:42 pm to Diamondawg
quote:
We voted 90+% to disaffiliate.
We voted 78% but like you, I was 100%
Friends churc vote was 6 shy of that stupid 66.01% requirement ...so 90-95% of the ones that voted to leave.. Left, so the existing UMC Church was left with just 130/40 out of once nearly 400
But yeah, the whole "yeah we are violating the rules and if you dont like it you can leave ... And buy your buildings back" was a crock. I want to know who "negotiated" for the traditional side because they got their backsides handed to them( us) I don't know once meaningful thing that they didn't capitulate on
Posted on 5/3/24 at 5:33 pm to RollTide1987
Then you should feel right at home.
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